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Greg,<br>
<br>
Your response to Brenda's letter does not address the part of
her statement that seems to me to sum up what is objectionable about
the tableaux in VICE: " <span style="">The VICE spread fetishizes
and aestheticizes the suicide of female intellectuals. " It
reminds me of the dubious Victorian taste for paintings of The
Lady of Shaottt or Ophelia, with the difference that they were
fictional women used to make "art" and in this case the women
actually lived and died. No image can stand in for them. And of
course they escape these images too, but it is still objectionable
to exploit their deaths in order to make pleasing visual
arrangements. It is not possible in an e-mail exchange to discuss
aesthetics at length but I do wonder why you are so concerned to
defend the photos as "not particularly good art -- but . . . art".<br>
Jean<br>
</span>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/19/2013 1:12 PM, Gregory Jordan
Dekter wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-Q8AMGYJci893uoLdr5MNEkXAaJuxGbZUudvFv9D1C3XA34w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p class="p1">Brenda,</p>
<p class="p1">I agree with you that discussion of Woolf's suicide
is excessive, and the fact that it can overshadow her literary
output in the minds of some is troubling. It is an unfortunate
phenomenon, as you know, not at all exclusive to Woolf. For
whatever reason, suicide itself (and often not the illness that
drives a person to it) is a topic of great interest in society,
and even more so when the subject is well known. That is not the
position from which I defend this photo spread. There is no
doubt the spread is cliche. I do not think it is particularly
good art--but it <i>is</i> art. </p>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">(Were
there captions running under Marlon Brando in <i>Apocalypse Now</i>
informing viewers who made his clothing? Do we see that <i>anywhere</i>
except when the clothing is being publicized as fashion? </blockquote>
<p class="p3">Yes, we do. <i>Apocalypse Now </i>was precisely my
example of the contrary. It carried no credits at all. Not
actors, writer, director, or the author that influenced it had
their names displayed on screen at any time. Just about every
other contemporary film we watch, however, always carries a
credit to the costume designer, right along side the actors,
writer, director, etc. For the purpose of a magazine we call it
a fashion designer. In film we call it a costume designer. It
means the same thing. The costumes in these photos came from
somewhere, and crediting the source they came from is not
tantamount to direct advertising. </p>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Have
you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide? It isn’t
pretty. They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in
fashionable clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d
suddenly decided to lay down gently and take a nap. </blockquote>
<p class="p5"><span class="s1">Generally, no. Realistically, no.
But art is often about shifting perception away from the real.
Do you remember that photo</span><span class="s2">graph,
published in Life magazine but made popular by Andy Warhol in
the work "Suicide (Fallen Body)"? It depicts the suicide of an
otherwise unknown woman. The Life magazine caption read: </span>“At
the bottom of the Empire State Building the body of Evelyn
McHale reposes calmly in grotesque bier, her falling body
punched into the top of a car.” The photo was apparently called
"the most beautiful suicide". Here is some information about it:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/the-empire-state-of-leap/">http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/the-empire-state-of-leap/</a>
There is more that could be said on this. Staged vs found
photographs, for one. But that is not my point. Merely, it is
not the duty of art to express reality. </p>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">It
also implies that intellectual gifts and artistic talents in
women somehow lead to suicide, </blockquote>
<p class="p4">Any group of images by an artist usually has some
cohesive idea behind it. Depicted here are the images of women
who did, or attempted to, kill themselves. Is it unfair to group
images by theme, or do you assert that suicide is not a valid
theme in art? In any case, I do not agree with your reading of
the images here. </p>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">which
has the obvious effect of discouraging women from pursuing their
own gifts and talents. Further, it encourages people who suffer
from psychological problems accompanied by thoughts of suicide
to understand themselves as potential geniuses rather than to
understand themselves as needing professional help. </blockquote>
<p class="p3">Again you have made an assertion that I see no
evidence for. </p>
<p class="p3">Greg</p>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 19 June 2013 14:56, Brenda S. Helt <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:helt0010@umn.edu" target="_blank">helt0010@umn.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Greg, I think a lot of
those of us who teach, study, and write about Woolf’s
work are “bothered by” the fact that Woolf’s suicide
is so often cited and capitalized upon. In fact, many
have written about this unfortunate phenomenon. I saw
that exhibit at the NYPL as well, and I was definitely
bothered by the fact that the curators found it
necessary to link the walking stick to her suicide.
Not <i>surprised</i>, since it’s such a common
gambit, but definitely bothered by. It’s a <i>library</i>;
how about a note mentioning the long walks on the
Sussex downs she’d take with this stick while
conceptualizing a novel? The result is that many
students come into our classes knowing only that one
fact about Woolf, just as they know that one detail
about Plath. And yes, many of us are also bothered by
the opening of <i>The Hours</i>, which capitalizes on
Woolf’s suicide and aetheticizes it. I’ve seen the
VICE spread, and it certainly was a (misguided, at the
least) attempt to market fashion. (Were there
captions running under Marlon Brando in <i>Apocalypse
Now</i> informing viewers who made his clothing? Do
we see that <i>anywhere</i> except when the clothing
is being publicized as fashion? This fashion
spread--as somebody on the list already said, I
believe--was suicide porn.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Have you ever seen
someone after they’ve committed suicide? It isn’t
pretty. They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement
in fashionable clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as
if they’d suddenly decided to lay down gently and take
a nap. Woolf was nearly unrecognizable after several
days under water. The VICE spread fetishizes and
aestheticizes the suicide of female intellectuals. It
also implies that intellectual gifts and artistic
talents in women somehow lead to suicide, which has
the obvious effect of discouraging women from pursuing
their own gifts and talents. Further, it encourages
people who suffer from psychological problems
accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand
themselves as potential geniuses rather than to
understand themselves as needing professional help.
There is no way to recuperate any of that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Brenda Helt</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vwoolf-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">vwoolf-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vwoolf-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">vwoolf-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gregory Jordan Dekter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></span></p>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author
suicides</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>Perhaps some of you were able to see the
photographs on the VICE website before they were
taken down. I had only been able to find a few out
of context (without captions), and so reserved my
response until I could get a copy of the print
edition, which I have now done. I think I am
somewhat informed now to discuss it. </p>
<p>Purely aesthetically, I would like to say that
these are beautifully arranged and photographed
images. They are dramatic, and evocative. They do
not seem to me exploitative, or at least not in a
way that is inconsistent with any other contemporary
art. </p>
<p>Most importantly they are depictions of tragic
events, with any narrative enforced only by the
small caption stating the subject and a brief line
about their death. For example, for Woolf the
caption reads:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">VIRGINIA WOOLF, 59<br>
<i>Born: January 25, 1882<br>
(London, England)<br>
Died: March 28, 1941<br>
(Lewes, England)<br>
Cause of death: drowning</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Kimberly, you had said the spread is being used to
sell fashion. This is really not the case. Although
this series is indexed in the magazine under
"Fashion", I think that is an incredibly subjective
term, and the general intention of the magazine
needs to be considered. This is not a commercial
fashion magazine. The entire tone of VICE is
artistic and/or experimental (I don't know of many
other free national publications that devote entire
issues to contemporary fiction). It should not be
considered along side Cosmo and the like. </p>
<p>It seems the primary reason this spread bothers
most of you is that the clothing designers are
specifically credited for the examples of their work
that appear in each photograph. Let me clear up that
these credits are minimal, and provide no
information on how or where to buy this clothing. It
is no more an advert than any other credit is an
advert of the contributor. Clothing design is a
valid medium of artistic expression, and it seems to
me these designers were credited as artists, just as
the models, stylist, and photographer were. There is
nothing explicitly for sale in these photographs. </p>
<p>Let me put it another way. The clothing we wear,
often overlooked, is an essential part of our
existence. Every shirt, dress, or pair of pants you
put on was designed and made by someone. Should a
designer of something not rightfully be credited for
their work if the thing they designed is for sale?
Or do you all consider "fashion" too flippant a form
to be taken seriously? Or, conversely, should no one
involved in a particularly heavy subject be credited
at the risk of distracting from, or devaluing their
own work? (The film "Apocalypse Now" was originally
shown without opening or closing credits for this
reason--but it is a rare instance).</p>
<p>If the distaste is that the images use the theme of
suicide as a point of interest, I am reminded of a
recent experience I had. Last year I attended an
exhibit at the New York Public Library that included
some Woolf artifacts. One item was a diary. Another
was her walking stick. Interestingly, the exhibit
made particular note that the walking stick
displayed was the one Woolf had with her when she
walked into the River Ouse the day she killed
herself. I wonder what additional enticement the
curator felt describing the item by its final use
would create. Was the simple fact that the walking
stick was owned by Virginia Woolf not enough? Was
some additional allure manifest in its passive
connection to her suicide? I don't know the answer
to this, but I also do not remember anyone being
bothered by it. </p>
<p>Greg</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 18 June 2013 19:55, Jean
Mallinson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:annaj@telus.net" target="_blank">annaj@telus.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm glad it was taken down
but the apology shows a failure to grasp jut
how deeply offensive the whole scheme was. It is
a kind of suicide porn and suggests a very
depraved taste. It made me feel sad and angry.<br>
Jean </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 6/18/2013 1:24 PM,
Melanie White wrote:</p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Apart
from VW, the characters in The Hours
were fictional, and VW’s death was
decades ago, whereas Iris Chang’s family
and loved ones probably are still very
much processing their grief over her
suicide. The image of her was
breathtakingly insensitive and offensive
to me for that reason. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vwoolf-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">vwoolf-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vwoolf-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:vwoolf-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kimberly Coates</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 18, 2013
12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gregory Jordan Dekter; Anne
Margaret Daniel</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vwoolf] staging
female author suicides</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
Greg:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is no
comparison. The VICE spread is
using suicide to sell fashion and
in doing so it glamorizes and
aestheticizes female bodies in
pain. It also takes our attention
far away from the amazing work all
of these women accomplished. You
would think that in an issue
announcing itself as covering
Women's Fiction that the work
would be their concern. Whatever
you want to say about Michael
Cunningham and/or the film version
of his novel The Hours, he isn't
guilty of promoting suicide to
sell shoes and vintage attire!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kim</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kimberly
Coates, Ph.D.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Associate
Professor of English</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Affiliate
Faculty Women's, Gender, and
Sexuality Studies/American
Culture Studies</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bowling Green
State University</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bowling
Green, OH 43403</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Office Phone:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:419-372-9189"
target="_blank">419-372-9189</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Gregory
Jordan Dekter <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jdekter@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jdekter@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 18, 2013
3:08 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Anne Margaret Daniel
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:daniela@newschool.edu"
target="_blank">daniela@newschool.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Vwoolf]
staging female author suicides</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'm
just wondering of those who oppose
this, are you equally offended by
the portrayal of the same event in
"The Hours"?</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 18 June 2013
15:03, Anne Margaret Daniel <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:daniela@newschool.edu"
target="_blank">daniela@newschool.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">VICE has
removed the online photos, not
apologizing very much ("to
anyone who was hurt or
offended") and stating,
defensively, that their "main
goal is to create artful images,
with the fashion message
following, rather than leading."
Taken down online, but still in
print. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here is the
Vice statement: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.vice.com/read/last-words-000741-v20n6"
target="_blank">http://www.vice.com/read/last-words-000741-v20n6</a></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
And here, still online at
Inquisitr, is the photo of
the model portraying Woolf,
standing in water and
holding a large stone. No
words for it, really.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.inquisitr.com/793059/vices-suicide-fashion-apology/"
target="_blank">http://www.inquisitr.com/793059/vices-suicide-fashion-apology/</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue,
Jun 18, 2013 at 1:59 PM,
Melanie White <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:melanie.white@comcast.net"
target="_blank">melanie.white@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/18/193014174/book-news-vice-draws-ire-by-staging-female-author-suicides?utm_source&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130617"
target="_blank">http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/18/193014174/book-news-vice-draws-ire-by-staging-female-author-suicides?utm_source&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130617</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Someone
said this has been
taken down now. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Vwoolf mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf"
target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf</a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">AMDaniel</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.annemargaretdaniel.com"
target="_blank">www.annemargaretdaniel.com</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf"
target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf</a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>Vwoolf mailing list</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf</a></pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Vwoolf mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf"
target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf</a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Vwoolf mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf"
target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf</a><br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Vwoolf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">Vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf</a>
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