<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Well, first of all, thanks to all for this great discussion with</span></div><div><span>its many themes. I just wanted to note briefly, and especially</span></div><div><span>with regard to the writing self, that Woolf deals with much of</span></div><div><span>this complexity in the essays "On Not Knowing Greek" and <br></span></div><div><span>"Reading." In the first of these she talks about parody in connection</span></div><div><span>with the ancient Antigone story, and generally deals with the <br></span></div><div><span>difficulties of narrative voices. "Reading" somewhat differently</span></div><div><span>addresses ideas on what gets narrated. This is my first post</span></div><div><span>to this list, which I like very much from what I've been reading</span></div><div><span>for the past two months. So I should
probalbly say something <br></span></div><div><span>about "my writing self." I also write poetry and criticism. And in large</span></div><div><span>part due to reading Virginia Woolf I work at visual art. At some point</span></div><div><span>I hope also to complete a doctoral dissertation on Virginia Woolf.... <br></span></div><div><span>Around about the age of 70, hopefully.<br></span></div><div><span>Thanks to all for very interesting discussions, <br></span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Best wishes, Bill<br></span></div><div><span>William Bain</span></div><div><span>PhD Student</span></div><div><span>Area de la teoria de la literatura </span></div><div><span>i literatura comparada</span></div><div><span>Departament de filologia espanyola</span></div><div><span>Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona</span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times
new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Laurie Reiche <p.reiche@comcast.net><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "Davis, Michael" <davismf@lemoyne.edu> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Woolf list <vwoolf@lists.service.ohio-state.edu> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 18, 2012 4:54 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vwoolf] Speculative recuperations of Woolf's suicide<br> </font> </div> <br><meta http-equiv="x-dns-prefetch-control" content="off"><div id="yiv261002893"><div>Well said, Michael. Doesn't seem like you're a fly stuck in the ointment at all! <div><span class="yiv261002893Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>After meditating on your words I began thinking about "the
intentional fallacy" and Woolf's writing and then I began to wonder, and might ask you, how it holds up, or is employed when diaries are so much part of Woolf's oeuvre? (Or any author's.) Granted, New Criticism asks us to stay with "the text itself," but with Woolf, her diaries are so much a part of the air we breathe when reading her that it's awfully hard to ignore the "real" life. I suppose one would have to keep each text separate even if that "text" were a diary, certainly? </div><div> <div><span class="yiv261002893Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>To add to the reading suggestions, I'd like to throw in Marguerite Duras', "The Lover" as an example of a woman writing/fictionalizing her life story or--- perhaps <i>not </i>writing her life story as she writes it!. As the narrator/Duras says in the book, "The story of my life doesn't exist. Does not exist. There's never any center to it. No path, no line. There are
great spaces where you pretend there used to be someone, but it's not true, there was no one." And all the while this "no one" is writing her story, one that we are told is the author's. This doesn't address the issue of suicide or mental illness but it does address, from an author's standpoint, the idea of complexity that we've also been discussing. I wonder if Woolf knew of Duras work? Or do I have my timeline completely off?</div><div>Laurie</div><div><div> <div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 17, 2012, at 7:54 AM, Davis, Michael wrote:</div><br class="yiv261002893Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>I hate to be the fly in the ointment here but I find the tendency of this conversation to be extremely troubling. In all of this talk of the death of the author there seems to be utterly no acknowledgement of that major theorem of twentieth-century critical theory, “the death of the author,” and none
either of its corollary “the intentional fallacy.” The first one should make us wonder whether Woolf’s suicide should be brought into the literature classroom at all. Indeed, if it were not, this would certainly solve the problem of identifying Woolf too much with that final act and of either romanticizing or pathologizing it. Assuming for a minute that we do bring it in, that second theorem of the intentional fallacy should make us very cautious about ascribing too much authority to Woolf’s note. As the poet has pointed out here, we do things for many reasons, and not just the reasons that we consciously express. Indeed, we often do things “against ourselves,” a phrase which, of course, has additional resonance in this context of suicide. The theme of last year’s Woolf conference was, many on the list will recall, “Contradictory Woolf.” We need a more complicated working notion of human
subjectivity here, and we should be wary of any particular personal politics (here the politics of “mental illness,” a category that has gone unquestioned here) foreclosing on other perfectly legitimate lines of inquiry. We can read human acts in all kinds of ways.</div>
<div><br></div><div>There is an additional problem here, however, and that is that Woolf herself thematized both mental illness (though often cloaked in other kinds of illness) and suicide in her fiction from the start (i.e., The Voyage Out), at which point she turned them into literary concerns (and not simply in order to re-present them), as of course had many authors before (at least from the earliest representations of Ajax on). The suggestion implied in the conversation that we cannot or should not inquire into either except as medical problems to be solved is, to me, outrageous, and an offense against literature. (See Ulysses on the way in which the modern medical profession has threatened to appropriate the functions of the poet and “cure” the soul (i.e, Buck Mulligan v. Stephen Daedalus); or see Mrs Dalloway, where Septimus’s illness and suicide have all kinds of psychological, philosophical, political, and even
poetic value--Septimus does after all solve (as a literary construct) a number of representational problems for Woolf and (as a character) both psychological and political problems for Clarissa.) As soon as Woolf thematizes these issues, they acquire all the complexity of any other aesthetic/imaginative object and are up for all kinds of analysis but particularly literary analysis, especially if we are teaching the literature for its literary value. To some extent, if people read her own suicide in these ways, it is because she herself mobilized such “readings” in her writing. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Julian Barnes (with a full awareness of Woolf it seems to me) has deftly treated the linked problems of biographical/authorial suicide and fictional suicide (including the difficulty, if not the impossibility, of separating them) in both Flaubert’s Parrot and The Sense of an Ending in ways that might illuminate and complicate this conversation. </div>
<div><br></div><br><div class="yiv261002893gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Detloff, Madelyn M. Dr. <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:detlofmm@muohio.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:detlofmm@muohio.edu">detlofmm@muohio.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="yiv261002893gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div>Yes, we'll said, Anne-Marie. </div><div><br></div><div>Madelyn<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><div class="yiv261002893h5"><div><br>On Jun 17, 2012, at 8:32 AM, "Steve Posin" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:steve_posin@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:steve_posin@yahoo.com">steve_posin@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>Brava Anne. Well said<br><br>Sent via IPhone<div>Steve Posin</div><div><br></div></div><div><br>On Jun 16, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Anne-Marie Lindsey <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:amtonyan@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:amtonyan@gmail.com">amtonyan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Here's where I<i> </i>have to jump in to back up Brenda; I left official Woolf scholarship in part because I was not handling my mental illness during graduate school. I am uncomfortable with comparisons to periscopes and references to mythology. I am not comfortable with the idea that suicide is poetry or poetic and beautifully mysterious. Mental illness really is what Woolf talked about in her last letter, and we all know that most attempts at treating her mental illness had been utter failures. It's not romantic; it's horrific. We cannot get inside her head, and we have no reason to assume that she did not tell Leonard the truth in her letter. Yes, there is context. Fear and anxiety were major components of Woolf's illness, and the threat of a Nazi invasion is not exactly conducive to calm.<div>
<br></div><div>All the same, mental illness in general and suicidal thoughts or plans are medical issues. It does us all a disservice to romanticize suicide. There is nothing romantic about coming to the conclusion that the only way to make it stop, whether it's hearing voices or grief or anxiety, is to end one's own life. I know from personal experience that it most often takes careful treatment by doctors who are well-trained to bring anyone back from that place. We do not do anyone any good by holding up Woolf (or Plath) as having met romantic ends. I remember learning that Woolf was a good swimmer, and that it must have taken enormous will power not to fight drowning. Maybe that sounds romantic to someone, but it sounds truly terrifying to me. My point is that Woolf's suicide is biographical event that resulted from a horrifically painful mental illness. It is not a statement about politics or The Abyss or World War II. When she wanted to make
statements, she did so in writing. I want to see classrooms and texts present her suicide as the result of a mental illness without either shaming that illness or romanticizing it. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Anne-Marie<br><div><br><div><div>On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:17 PM, Laurie Reiche wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;">Do I dare jump into this brilliant conversation, being nobody really except an unknown poet/writer who is a Woolf worshipper and new to speaking in this company of Woolf scholars? Well, of course, I'm going to take the leap, if only to say this: the reasons for Woolf's suicide (or anybody's for that matter) was, obviously, an accumulation of multifaceted anguishes. One emotional, psychological, political, or physical event usually won't be the trigger propelling one to choose to die. Can you imagine (I suppose we could never) being a fly on the wall of Woolf's brain and listening in on the conversations taking place in her mind---not the thoughts she wrote in her diaries but the one's she couldn't catch in her net of words---during the months before she died? I imagine (having felt
suicidal depression myself over the many long years of my life) her brilliant mind being like a periscope observing the whole vast and tumultuous sea of existence, making notes, philosophical declarations, artistic comments, political utterances while simultaneously noticing her own body and the way it, too, was reacting to her thoughts: nerves pitching upward or plummeting down---Thantos luring her into the darkness at the same time as Eros (all the loves in her life and passions) beckoning her to stay in the light of life? I don't know if I'm making myself understood? I'm just trying to say that Woolf's reasons for suicide cannot be fully understood; finding one particular factor is wrongheaded. Anyway, I don't think she'd approve of us taking one path to understanding her motivation! She was a multifaceted gem of a woman and her death was a reflection of that blinding (?) complexity and---yes---effulgence. But her suicide can't help but make me think
of Paul Celan's---so many years after the Holocaust---throwing himself into the Seine; or Plath's ritualistic toying with death---every ten years trying it then finally losing the roulette game---and the reasons? Always so many…and always so mysterious. I wrote a poem a while back called "Points and Slopes" which was, literally, a portrait of Woolf. The last two lines of the sonnet sums up the conundrum we face when trying to understand her suicide, (and her life:) "...What do your eyes see that your mouth does not?/Such pain in the glass of your eyes or is that light gladness?" <div>
Warmly,<br><div>Laurie Lessen Reiche<br></div></div><div><br></div><div><div>On Jun 16, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Brenda Helt wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;"><div lang="EN-US">
<div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="">This is exactly the type of thing I’m talking about. Woolf was specific in her suicide letter as to why she took her life, and when her contemporaries began to hypothesize that she committed suicide because she feared Nazi invasion etc, Leonard quoted the letter publicly in order to stop that nonsense—which it seems to me is an unfortunate thing to have to do when your partner has just died. Mental illness is the main reason most people commit suicide, and it’s why Woolf committed suicide. She specifically said so and did not mention other reasons. The “carefully considered choice” is just another form of the romantic madwoman (or genius) throwing herself into the abyss—an attempt to recuperate as “altruistic” something that is the result of mental illness. That is a dangerous direction for Woolf scholars to go, in
my opinion, because we seem then to throw the weight of our authority as Woolf scholars (and teachers/professors) behind a recuperative attitude towards suicide that does not encourage our students, readers, or audience members who might be fascinated with her suicide because they themselves contemplate suicide to get the<span> </span><i>medical</i><span> </span>help they need. I think we would have been better off to have another thirty or so years of writing from Woolf; her suicide ranks as one of those horrible things that happens in life that it’s too bad Leonard or someone didn’t see coming and manage to stop. I can’t recuperate it. I wouldn’t want to try. And I prefer the facts.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style=""><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;">
<span style="">Brenda Helt, PhD<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style=""><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top: 1pt solid rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif;"><span> </span><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vwoolf-bounces+helt0010=umn.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:vwoolf-bounces+helt0010=umn.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">vwoolf-bounces+helt0010=umn.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><span> </span>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vwoolf-bounces%2Bhelt0010" target="_blank" href="mailto:vwoolf-bounces%2Bhelt0010">vwoolf-bounces+helt0010</a>=<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:umn.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:umn.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">umn.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]<span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>jeannette smyth<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Saturday, June 16, 2012 8:42 AM<br><b>To:</b><span> </span>Woolf list<br><b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [Vwoolf] Apocryphal lines & Woolf's suicide<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;">
<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Thank you for this excellent Orr information; I know Sir Leslie's financial anxiety was formative in Woolf's life, as well as Virginia's and Leonard's natural asceticism and frugality.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"> <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Another factor in her suicide, as I understand it, was the imminence of a Nazi invasion. I think this is mentioned, rather brutally, by Vanessa, in one of her letters to Virginia -- the prospect of being an "invalid" or raving lunatic at such a time, with both Leonard and herself on Hitler's to-kill list.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"> <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Finally, as I understand it, Adrian Stephen, a physician, had provided them all with a suicide pill in the event of a successful Nazi invasion.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"> <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">These factors, along with the Bloomsberries' longstanding atheism and Leonard's carefully cultivated stoicism (via Montaigne/Seneca), would have made Virginia Woolf's suicide the altruistic, logical, long-contemplated, communitarian and sane decision -- the absolute opposite of a romantic madwoman's hurling herself into the abyss -- that it seems to have been.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"> <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Jeannette Smyth<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left: 1.5pt solid blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin-left: 0in; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">-----Original Message-----<span> </span><br>
From: "Neverow, Vara S."<span> </span><br>Sent: Jun 14, 2012 8:36 AM<span> </span><br>To: "<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:helt0010@umn.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:helt0010@umn.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">helt0010@umn.edu</a>" , Woolf list<span> </span><br>
Cc: Wayne Chapman<span> </span><br>Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] Apocryphal lines & Woolf's suicide<span> </span><br><br><br><u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif;">
<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">With regard to Woolf's suicide, I would recommend that Woolfians also consult the monograph <i>Virginia Woolf's Illnesses</i> by Douglass W. Orr <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.clemson.edu/cedp/cudp/pubs/orr/main.htm%3e" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.clemson.edu/cedp/cudp/pubs/orr/main.htm></a>. Orr argues<span> </span><b>very</b>convincingly </span></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Michael F. Davis, Ph.D.<div>Associate Professor<br>Associate Chair<br>Department of English</div><div>Le Moyne College</div><div>Syracuse, NY 13214</div><div>
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