[Vwoolf] staging female author suicides

Wed Jun 19 20:54:05 EDT 2013

Greg,

With all due respect, the vwoolf listserv may not be the best forum for
mansplaining,

Anne

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Gregory Jordan Dekter <jdekter at gmail.com>wrote:

> Brenda,
>
> I agree with you that discussion of Woolf's suicide is excessive, and the
> fact that it can overshadow her literary output in the minds of some is
> troubling. It is an unfortunate phenomenon, as you know, not at all
> exclusive to Woolf. For whatever reason, suicide itself (and often not the
> illness that drives a person to it) is a topic of great interest in
> society, and even more so when the subject is well known. That is not the
> position from which I defend this photo spread. There is no doubt the
> spread is cliche. I do not think it is particularly good art--but it *is*art.
>
>> (Were there captions running under Marlon Brando in *Apocalypse Now*informing viewers who made his clothing?  Do we see that
>> *anywhere* except when the clothing is being publicized as fashion?
>
> Yes, we do. *Apocalypse Now *was precisely my example of the contrary. It
> carried no credits at all. Not actors, writer, director, or the author that
> influenced it had their names displayed on screen at any time. Just about
> every other contemporary film we watch, however, always carries a credit to
> the costume designer, right along side the actors, writer, director, etc.
> For the purpose of a magazine we call it a fashion designer. In film we
> call it a costume designer. It means the same thing. The costumes in these
> photos came from somewhere, and crediting the source they came from is not
> tantamount to direct advertising.
>
>> Have you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide?  It isn’t
>> pretty.  They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in fashionable
>> clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d suddenly decided to lay
>> down gently and take a nap.
>
> Generally, no. Realistically, no. But art is often about shifting
> perception away from the real. Do you remember that photograph, published
> in Life magazine but made popular by Andy Warhol in the work "Suicide
> (Fallen Body)"? It depicts the suicide of an otherwise unknown woman. The
> Life magazine caption read: “At the bottom of the Empire State Building
> the body of Evelyn McHale reposes calmly in grotesque bier, her falling
> body punched into the top of a car.” The photo was apparently called "the
> most beautiful suicide". Here is some information about it:
> http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/the-empire-state-of-leap/There is more that could be said on this. Staged vs found photographs, for
> one. But that is not my point. Merely, it is not the duty of art to express
> reality.
>
>> It also implies that intellectual gifts and artistic talents in women
>> somehow lead to suicide,
>
> Any group of images by an artist usually has some cohesive idea behind it.
> Depicted here are the images of women who did, or attempted to, kill
> themselves. Is it unfair to group images by theme, or do you assert that
> suicide is not a valid theme in art? In any case, I do not agree with your
> reading of the images here.
>
>> which has the obvious effect of discouraging women from pursuing their
>> own gifts and talents.  Further, it encourages people who suffer from
>> psychological problems accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand
>> themselves as potential geniuses rather than to understand themselves as
>> needing professional help.
>
> Again you have made an assertion that I see no evidence for.
>
> Greg
>
> On 19 June 2013 14:56, Brenda S. Helt <helt0010 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
>> Greg, I think a lot of those of us who teach, study, and write about
>> Woolf’s work are “bothered by” the fact that Woolf’s suicide is so often
>> cited and capitalized upon.  In fact, many have written about this
>> unfortunate phenomenon.  I saw that exhibit at the NYPL as well, and I was
>> definitely bothered by the fact that the curators found it necessary to
>> link the walking stick to her suicide.  Not *surprised*, since it’s such
>> a common gambit, but definitely bothered by.  It’s a *library*; how
>> about a note mentioning the long walks on the Sussex downs she’d take with
>> this stick while conceptualizing a novel?  The result is that many students
>> come into our classes knowing only that one fact about Woolf, just as they
>> know that one detail about Plath.  And yes, many of us are also bothered by
>> the opening of *The Hours*, which capitalizes on Woolf’s suicide and
>> aetheticizes it.  I’ve seen the VICE spread, and it certainly was a
>> (misguided, at the least) attempt to market fashion.  (Were there captions
>> running under Marlon Brando in *Apocalypse Now* informing viewers who
>> made his clothing?  Do we see that *anywhere* except when the clothing
>> is being publicized as fashion?  This fashion spread--as somebody on the
>> list already said, I believe--was suicide porn.)****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Have you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide?  It isn’t
>> pretty.  They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in fashionable
>> clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d suddenly decided to lay
>> down gently and take a nap.  Woolf was nearly unrecognizable after several
>> days under water.  The VICE spread fetishizes and aestheticizes the suicide
>> of female intellectuals.  It also implies that intellectual gifts and
>> artistic talents in women somehow lead to suicide, which has the obvious
>> effect of discouraging women from pursuing their own gifts and talents.
>>  Further, it encourages people who suffer from psychological problems
>> accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand themselves as potential
>> geniuses rather than to understand themselves as needing professional
>> help.  There is no way to recuperate any of that.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Brenda Helt****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:
>> vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] *On Behalf Of *Gregory
>> Jordan Dekter
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:23 AM
>> *To:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Perhaps some of you were able to see the photographs on the VICE website
>> before they were taken down. I had only been able to find a few out of
>> context (without captions), and so reserved my response until I could get a
>> copy of the print edition, which I have now done. I think I am somewhat
>> informed now to discuss it. ****
>>
>> Purely aesthetically, I would like to say that these are beautifully
>> arranged and photographed images. They are dramatic, and evocative. They do
>> not seem to me exploitative, or at least not in a way that is inconsistent
>> with any other contemporary art. ****
>>
>> Most importantly they are depictions of tragic events, with any narrative
>> enforced only by the small caption stating the subject and a brief line
>> about their death. For example, for Woolf the caption reads:****
>>
>> VIRGINIA WOOLF, 59
>> *Born: January 25, 1882
>> (London, England)
>> Died: March 28, 1941
>> (Lewes, England)
>> Cause of death: drowning*****
>>
>> Kimberly, you had said the spread is being used to sell fashion. This is
>> really not the case. Although this series is indexed in the magazine under
>> "Fashion", I think that is an incredibly subjective term, and the general
>> intention of the magazine needs to be considered. This is not a commercial
>> fashion magazine. The entire tone of VICE is artistic and/or experimental
>> (I don't know of many other free national publications that devote entire
>> issues to contemporary fiction). It should not be considered along side
>> Cosmo and the like. ****
>>
>> It seems the primary reason this spread bothers most of you is that the
>> clothing designers are specifically credited for the examples of their work
>> that appear in each photograph. Let me clear up that these credits are
>> minimal, and provide no information on how or where to buy this clothing.
>> It is no more an advert than any other credit is an advert of the
>> contributor. Clothing design is a valid medium of artistic expression, and
>> it seems to me these designers were credited as artists, just as the
>> models, stylist, and photographer were. There is nothing explicitly for
>> sale in these photographs. ****
>>
>> Let me put it another way. The clothing we wear, often overlooked, is an
>> essential part of our existence. Every shirt, dress, or pair of pants you
>> put on was designed and made by someone. Should a designer of something not
>> rightfully be credited for their work if the thing they designed is for
>> sale? Or do you all consider "fashion" too flippant a form to be taken
>> seriously? Or, conversely, should no one involved in a particularly heavy
>> subject be credited at the risk of distracting from, or devaluing their own
>> work? (The film "Apocalypse Now" was originally shown without opening or
>> closing credits for this reason--but it is a rare instance).****
>>
>> If the distaste is that the images use the theme of suicide as a point of
>> interest, I am reminded of a recent experience I had. Last year I attended
>> an exhibit at the New York Public Library that included some Woolf
>> artifacts. One item was a diary. Another was her walking stick.
>> Interestingly, the exhibit made particular note that the walking stick
>> displayed was the one Woolf had with her when she walked into the River
>> Ouse the day she killed herself. I wonder what additional enticement the
>> curator felt describing the item by its final use would create. Was the
>> simple fact that the walking stick was owned by Virginia Woolf not enough?
>> Was some additional allure manifest in its passive connection to her
>> suicide? I don't know the answer to this, but I also do not remember anyone
>> being bothered by it. ****
>>
>> Greg****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 18 June 2013 19:55, Jean Mallinson <annaj at telus.net> wrote:****
>>
>> I'm glad it was taken down but the apology  shows a failure to grasp jut
>> how deeply offensive the whole scheme was. It is a kind of suicide porn and
>> suggests a very depraved taste. It made me feel sad and angry.
>> Jean ****
>>
>> On 6/18/2013 1:24 PM, Melanie White wrote:****
>>
>> Apart from VW, the characters in The Hours were fictional, and VW’s death
>> was decades ago, whereas Iris Chang’s family and loved ones probably are
>> still very much processing their grief over her suicide. The image of her
>> was breathtakingly insensitive and offensive to me for that reason. ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> *From:* vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
>> mailto:vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Kimberly Coates****
>>
>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:27 PM
>> *To:* Gregory Jordan Dekter; Anne Margaret Daniel****
>>
>> *Cc:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu****
>>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Greg:****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> There is no comparison. The VICE spread is using suicide to sell fashion
>> and in doing so it glamorizes and aestheticizes female bodies in pain. It
>> also takes our attention far away from the amazing work all of these women
>> accomplished. You would think that in an issue announcing itself as
>> covering Women's Fiction that the work would be their concern. Whatever you
>> want to say about Michael Cunningham and/or the film version of his novel
>> The Hours, he isn't guilty of promoting suicide to sell shoes and vintage
>> attire!****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Kim****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Kimberly Coates, Ph.D.****
>>
>> Associate Professor of English****
>>
>> Affiliate Faculty Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies/American Culture
>> Studies****
>>
>> Bowling Green State University****
>>
>> Bowling Green, OH 43403****
>>
>> Office Phone: 419-372-9189****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> *From: *Gregory Jordan Dekter <jdekter at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:08 PM
>> *To: *Anne Margaret Daniel <daniela at newschool.edu>
>> *Cc: *"vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu" <
>> vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> I'm just wondering of those who oppose this, are you equally offended by
>> the portrayal of the same event in "The Hours"?****
>>
>> On 18 June 2013 15:03, Anne Margaret Daniel <daniela at newschool.edu>
>> wrote:****
>>
>> VICE has removed the online photos, not apologizing very much ("to anyone
>> who was hurt or offended") and stating, defensively, that their "main goal
>> is to create artful images, with the fashion message following, rather than
>> leading."  Taken down online, but still in print.    ****
>>
>> Here is the Vice statement:
>> http://www.vice.com/read/last-words-000741-v20n6****
>>
>> And here, still online at Inquisitr, is the photo of the model portraying
>> Woolf, standing in water and holding a large stone.  No words for it,
>> really.****
>>
>> http://www.inquisitr.com/793059/vices-suicide-fashion-apology/****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Melanie White <melanie.white at comcast.net>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>
>> http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/18/193014174/book-news-vice-draws-ire-by-staging-female-author-suicides?utm_source&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130617
>> ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Someone said this has been taken down now. ****
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> -- ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Best,****
>>
>> AMDaniel****
>>
>> www.annemargaretdaniel.com****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>
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-- 
Anne E. Fernald<http://www.fordham.edu/academics/programs_at_fordham_/english/faculty/english_faculty/anne_fernald_28537.asp>
Director of Writing/Composition at Lincoln Center,
Associate Professor of
English<http://www.fordham.edu/academics/programs_at_fordham_/english/index.asp>and
Women's
Studies <http://www.fordham.edu/womens_studies>
Fordham University
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212/636-7613
fernald at fordham.edu
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