[Ohiogift] "Success" Re: ungiftedness

Sun Jun 23 14:20:29 EDT 2013

Some additional relevant points:  Sometimes, "success" is achieved (or not) through a rigged system (corruption, nepotism, sexism, racism, slavery, human trafficking, oligarchy, plutocracy, etc.).  It is not just dependent upon the individual but how the indivIduals, groups or systems fight (or not) the corruption in our various systems (work, education, government, etc).  That is why "success" should be defined and evaluated very critically and very carefully in consideration of the long term success of a culture.  For example, I do not consider "success" to be wealth accumulation without any consideration of how that wealth was accumulated (examples: drug dealers, Bernie Madoff, exploitation of workers, etc.)  

Mary Collier

-----Original Message-----
From: Edward A. Hawks III <eah3rd at windstream.net>
To: 'Sandra Warren' <Sandra at arliebooks.com>; '(Mary Collier)' <redfoxmary at aol.com>
Cc: Ohiogift <Ohiogift at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
Sent: Sun, Jun 23, 2013 11:09 am
Subject: RE: [Ohiogift] ungiftedness

Mary’s point about the military can also equate to corporate. If someone tends to ‘mess up’, let’s promote him! 

I agree with Margaret’s comments; giftedness does not always equate to being highly successful based on society’s standards. Research has shown that successful CEOs are not the Einsteins. They are bright, yet innovative and possess good management skills. Many average individuals have impeccable managerial and organizational skills. The one whose thoughts are all scattered will likely not be in that position. One question I ask my students each year, after some basic discussion, is whether they would rather be an Einstein or Edison and to explain why. We see Edison’s legacy all around us. Einstein’s genius produced some of the most debated theories, which still baffle us today. Their responses are interesting. 

I also think it’s important to remember that there are different types and levels of giftedness. If John is a high-ability math kid, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is going to become a mathematical genius. Nor is Jane’s 150 IQ and love of medicine foretelling that she will be the one to find a cure for anything. We put too much pressure on our gifted children, at times, and expect more than they are developmentally ready to deliver. I believe in realistic challenges that will stretch their minds yet provide a positive outcome. A 127 IQ v. a 160 IQ will yield noticeably different results in children combined in one resource room. There’s also the threshold for creativity, in which the 127 would more than likely exhibit, as opposed to the 160. 

For some, the pursuit of happiness is measured on their success. Success makes them happy; failure does not. An individual’s happiness is determined by that individual. We can’t stereotype happiness. We can only provide the necessary tools to help an individual determine her own course and, hopefully, reach the top of her designated mountain—not the parent’s—on her own time-frame . . . not that of society. 

Good discussion,

Chip

Edward A. Hawks, III, M.Ed.

Gifted Intervention Specialist / Exceptional Student Education
Kent City School District

“What he seemed, he was—a wholly human gentleman, the 
essential elements of whose positive character were two and 
only two, simplicity and spirituality.”  
(Douglas Southall Freeman on Robert E. Lee)

From: ohiogift-bounces+eah3rd=windstream.net at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:ohiogift-bounces+eah3rd=windstream.net at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Sandra Warren
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 9:38 AM
To: (Mary Collier)
Cc: Ohiogift at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: [Ohiogift] ungiftedness

Well said, Margaret! 

Sandra :-)

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 5:42 AM, (Mary Collier) <redfoxmary at aol.com> wrote:

Thank you, Margaret, for saying what I wanted to say, but you did it so well.  I also was bothered with the "success" and intelligence relationship and how "success" is defined.  Many "successful" people also end up in prison.  In the military there was a saying "rank times IQ is equal to a constant" which was a sad/humorous way of saying, the more intelligent you were, the less likely you were to achieve higher rank.

Mary Collier

-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret DeLacy <margaretdelacy at comcast.net>
To: Ohiogift <Ohiogift at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
Sent: Sun, Jun 23, 2013 1:17 am
Subject: [Ohiogift] ungiftedness

>challenge the conventional wisdom about the childhood predictors of adult 
success

Speaking just for myself, I am frustrated when I see comments about how "gifted 
programs" have failed if their graduates turn out to be "ordinary" and don't 
turn out to be distinguished or "successful" by some outside standard.  I want 
to grab these authors by the lapels and scream "that's just the point!"  I 
believe that most parents of children with physical disabilities or intellectual 
disabilities want their children to have as normal a life as possible.  That is 
just what I want for my own children.  I don't expect my children to become 
"great".  I just want them to survive school with their spirits mostly intact.

There are indeed many paths to greatness.  Many great men and women had terrible 
childhoods, but I didn't abuse my own children in the hope that some day they 
would write a best-selling memoir about it.  Similarly, I didn't want to see my 
children abused in school, even if it turned them into distinguished individuals 
down the road.  

That is one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with the new NAGC definition of 
giftedness.  It seems to be about what society wants from gifted children.  I am 
more interested in seeing them engaged in school, happy in their relationships 
and satisfied with their eventual occupations, however humble. Maybe Kaufmann 
has the same point of view--I will read the book (eventually) and find out.  But 
I reject the claim that we should identify gifted students  in order to predict 
adult success.  We should identify gifted students to find those for whom 
regular classroom instruction is inappropriate so the level and pace of 
instruction can be modified and they don't go crazy sitting in class. 

The founding fathers didn't write about life, liberty and success.  They wrote 
about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Why should we want less for 
our children?  

In any case, thank you Art for letting me know about the book.

Margaret

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