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Hi, all. Thank you, Vanessa, for your question. I think a few different aspects of romanization have gotten mixed together. Per HCM-RDA, p. 19, the standard romanized forms of place names are based on the form found in E-Sh. and, if not found
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hi, all. Thank you, Vanessa, for your question. I think a few different aspects of romanization have gotten mixed together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Per
<i>HCM-RDA</i>, p. 19, the standard romanized forms of place names are based on the form found in E-Sh. and, if not found there, the form in
<i>Entsiklopedyah ha-‘Ivrit</i> (<i>E. ha-‘I.</i>). E-Sh. has an entry for </span>
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">בִּיזַנְטִי</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="HE" style="font-size:14.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">and within the definition gives the form </span>
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">בִּיזַנְטוֹן</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>, but there is no entry or usage
of </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ביזנטיון</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> in E-Sh. The entry for
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ביזנטיון</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> is in v.8 of
<i>E. ha-‘I.</i>; unfortunately, the Internet Archive <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://archive.org/details/2_20200322_20200322_1243/Encyclopaedia_Hebraica_Vol8/page/n179/mode/2up__;!!KGKeukY!yQyQSvbL6UjPk1AjlWh-o1QvdYKkQrtpLmkCjtlDSfeB-94F5zS8Utc76KgAQk0HZ3-z2JvM6dBtl8DxfETxfA$">
scan</a> is a bit blurry and it’s not clear what, if any, vocalization is present under the letters
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ב</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> and
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ט</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>. I’ve requested the hard copy from our
off-site storage. The ṿaṿ has a ḥolam, so it’s definitely Biz…<span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">o</span>n not Biz…un.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">The examples given of
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">בני ברק</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> and
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">בבל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> are both of Hebrew names/words; as
such, rules of aspiration apply, yielding the forms be-Vavel and bi-Vene Berak, along with bi-Verit ha-Mo’atsot as Yossi explained. Hebrew grammar rules applied to Hebrew names
<b>cannot</b> be used to infer treatment of non-Hebrew/foreign names. (I.e., be-Vavel =/=> be-Viz…on)</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="3" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ביזנטיון</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
is a foreign word/name, as is </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ברלין</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>.
Searching LC for forms of </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">בברלין</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> yields
the expected be-Berlin. The same treatment would follow for </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">בביזנטיון</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="HE" style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Wingdings">à</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> be-Bizanṭyon/be-Bizanṭiyon (pending what’s found in
<i>E. ha-‘I.</i>). For </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">בברוקלין</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>, LC has
a mix of be- and bi-Bruḳlin. Notably, there is no bX-Vruḳlin. Per <i>HCM-RDA</i>, p. 17, “These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.” B<span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">i</span>-Bruḳlin
is correct.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="4" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">בירושלים</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
is romanized as bi-Yerushalayim for separate, unrelated reasons, and has no relation to the romanization of other place names that either do or do not follow Hebrew grammar rules of aspiration and vowel-heightening (depending on their origin).</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="5" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt">HCM-RDA</span></i><span style="font-size:12.0pt">, p. 18, specifically states that the correct form is be-Polin,
<i>not</i> be-Folin. I’m sure all our catalogs have wrong forms, not just LC. </span>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Regarding the instruction “A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable”, I agree that it
could be more helpful. I think <i>most</i> loan words are treated as exempt from the rules of aspiration/non-aspiration; exceptions are indicated in the
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://rascat.pbworks.com/w/page/109347700/Romanization*20FAQ__;JQ!!KGKeukY!yQyQSvbL6UjPk1AjlWh-o1QvdYKkQrtpLmkCjtlDSfeB-94F5zS8Utc76KgAQk0HZ3-z2JvM6dBtl8BN96sKZQ$">Romanization FAQ</a> (see entries under
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ב</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> and
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">פ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>)</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt">.
I noted that this section needs revision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Please let me know if there are any questions! Thanks, Jasmin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+jshino=upenn.edu@lists.osu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 25, 2023 12:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gottschalk, Haim <hgot@loc.gov>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>; Freedman, Vanessa <v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">בביזנטיון</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Well, I don’t agree with the notion that we have to transcribe the non-Hebrew names according to the rules of the Hebrew language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">A search in the OCLC database found 1266 hits for “be-Polin” (of those there are 146 records from the Library of Congress) and 140 hits for “be-Folin” (of those there are 2 records from LC).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hebrew place name (Bene Berak, Berit ha-mo’atsot, etc.) should be transcribed according to the Hebrew grammar rules (i.e bi-Vene Berak, bi-Verit ha-moatsot, etc.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">That reminds me on the story about the discussion in the Israeli Kenesset in the 1950s when Rabbi Fishman of the Mafdal party complained that the government does not encourage the use of proper grammatical
rules, especially a case of Dagesh in the letters Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh and Tav when they are at the beginning of a word. David Ben Gurion answered – “Mar Pishman tsodek”, and that ended the discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Yossi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> Heb-naco
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Freedman, Vanessa <<a href="mailto:v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk">v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk</a>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">בביזנטיון</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:.75pt"><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white">Hi Vanessa, Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant. yun. It is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL">בברוקלין </span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>(in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:.75pt"><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Hi Vanessa,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant.yun. It is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">בברוקלין</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">
</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>(in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that
said I also search for </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">בבני ברק</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">and found bi-Vene Berak. My inclination would be to have the B instead of a V, for the sake of searching, similar to the idea of how we Romanize
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">בירושלים</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">as bi-Yerushalayim instead of birushalayim.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">My 3.37 cents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Haim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">__________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Haim A. Gottschalk<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Hebraica and Judaica Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"> Heb-naco <<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Freedman, Vanessa via Heb-naco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Heb-NACO (<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>) <<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">בביזנטיון</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:.75pt"><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">How would you Romanise
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL">בביזנטיון </span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>(in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because
it’s a foreign loan word? Thanks Vanessa Vanessa Freedman Subject Liaison Librarian:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">How would you Romanise </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">בביזנטיון</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">
</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>(in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain
the B after be- because it’s a foreign loan word?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Vanessa<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Vanessa Freedman</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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