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<p class="MsoNormal">The email chain below has combined different issues. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">דרמתי</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>, as Yossi wrote, is of Greek/Latin origin and is romanized following
<i>HCM-RDA</i> instructions on foreign loan words, p.17: “In the case of foreign loan words of Latin or Greek origin, Alcalay should not be followed, and an initial consonantal cluster is treated as a
<i>sheṿa naḥ</i>.” <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">קלוקלים</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> is a Hebrew word and is romanized following
<i>HCM-RDA</i> instructions on<span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt">sheṿa</span>, pp. 15-17, copied here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">The transcription of the
<i>sheṿa</i> is problematic.</span> The ALA-LC Romanization system attempts to approximate standard Israeli pronunciation throughout the romanization process while at the same time reflecting the general principles of traditional Hebrew grammar. Obviously,
this is a difficult gap to bridge. Other considerations to keep in mind are the basic continuity of romanization practice in spite of profound cataloging changes over the years on the one hand, and the accessibility of one’s data on the other. Although there
are only a few systems where capitalization practice or the presence or absence of a diacritic or special character will affect retrieval per se, the romanization or non-romanization of a vowel is quite another matter.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Alcalay is useful for the identification of
<i>sheṿa naḥ</i> (quiescent) and <i>sheṿa na‘</i> (mobile) in that he usually does not transcribe the
<i>sheṿa naḥ</i> in his vocalization scheme. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">With regard to the romanization or non-romanization of the
<i>sheṿa na‘</i>, there are several principles to be kept in mind.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">All
<i>sheṿas</i> in Hebrew initial syllables are <i>sheṿa na‘</i> and are transcribed as "e" regardless of pronunciation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">teḳufah [<i>not</i>: tḳufah (era)]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">תקופה</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">teshuvah [<i>not</i>: tshuvah (response)]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">תשובה</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">There are however, at least two categories of
<i>sheṿa na‘</i> in which the romanization system attempts to follow generally accepted pronunciation a little more closely. Both categories consist of cases of
<i>sheṿa na‘</i> which result from what some linguists call “vowel reduction.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">The first and most easily definable of these categories is the
<i>sheṿa</i> occurring between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of
<i>benoni</i></span> (participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other verb forms of the
<i>pa‘al/ḳal</i>, <i>pi‘el</i>, and <i>hitpa‘el binyanim</i> (stems), including all
<i>sheṿas</i> following consonants with <i>dagesh ḥazaḳ</i>. Exceptions apply if the
<i>lamed ha-po’</i>al (third consonant of the root) is the same as the second (<i>‘ayin ha-po‘al</i>), or if the second consonant is a
<i>yod</i> (<i>‘ayin-yod</i> pattern).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">lomdim [<i>not</i>: lomedim]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">לומדים</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">lomdot [<i>not</i>: lomedot]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">לומדות</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><i>from</i>: lomed
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">לומד</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">rof’im [<i>not</i>: rofe’im]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">רופאים</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">rof’ot [<i>not</i>: rofe’ot]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">רופאות</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><i>from</i>: rofe
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">רופאים</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">munḥe [<i>not</i>: muneḥe]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">מונחי</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><i>from</i>: munaḥim
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">מונחים</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">tedabru [<i>not</i>: tedaberu]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">תדברו</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">tedabri [<i>not</i>: tedaberi]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">תדברי</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><i>from</i>: tedaber
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">תדבר</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">mitsṭarfim [<i>not</i>: mitsṭarefim]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">מצטרפים</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">mitsṭarfot [<i>not</i>: mitsṭarefot]
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">מצטרפות</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><i>from</i>: mitsṭaref
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">מצטרף</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">(highlights added for emphasis/easy browsing)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">קלוקל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="HE"><span dir="LTR"></span>
</span>falls into the above category. Hence, ḳeloḳlim, <i>not</i>: ḳeloḳelim or ḳloḳlim (<i>from</i>: ḳeloḳel).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Jasmin<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu@lists.osu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 8, 2022 1:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">קלוקלים</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with Barry – it should be Kelokelim and not Keloklim or Kloklim. It is a Hebrew word.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is not the same as Dramati (that is a non-Hebrew word)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco <b>On Behalf Of </b>Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 07, 2022 11:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shinohara, Jasmin <<a href="mailto:jshino@pobox.upenn.edu">jshino@pobox.upenn.edu</a>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">קלוקלים</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi, Jasmin,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The rule seems to be that if in the singular base word the letter in question has a vowel underneath it, then, in the plural<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">the sheva is a sheva na. So, since the sing. is kelokel, with tsere under the kof, then the plural should be kelokelim.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">See:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/hebrew-academy.org.il/2013/09/01/**I-**G-**K/__;16LXmden16jXmdeq15XXqNeq15TXoNeZ16fXldeT!!KGKeukY!kfyp455q_TPBY6DDi9TdY5pTxdZfi2EiioJlp5K5FC7qtCWMurG2Lb2MsMFy_NzmQJio$">https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2013/09/01/%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%93/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hope this helps,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Barry<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:29 PM Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco <<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hi, all,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The above is found in a couple titles by Toviyah Rubner (and is cited from him in the E.-Sh. entry for word). It has historically been romanized as ḳeloḳelim. My question is,
why is the sheva under the second kof romanized as though it were a vocalized sheva? As a sheva merahef, wouldn’t it be ignored and the word romanized ḳeloḳlim?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Looking forward to your input.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks, Jasmin<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">---<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Jasmin Shinohara<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hebraica Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">University of Pennsylvania<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">131 Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">3420 Walnut Street<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">T. 215-746-6397<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="mailto:jshino@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jshino@upenn.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Coordinator, Hebraica BIBCO, NACO, & SACO Funnels<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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