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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Good morning, all, and happy Friday!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Picking up on where we left yesterday, based on p. 21 of
<i>HCM</i>, ("In the rare cases where Even-Shoshan may show the same word under more than one entry element, the more 'analytical' option is chosen.") we agreed that standard romanization of
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">בגלל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span> is bi-gelal (and
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">בשביל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span> is bi-shevil in all cases). Yossi
confirmed that the romanzations of the words I’d listed (found in the wiki romanzation FAQ) are correct but questioned
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">ממני</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW"><span dir="LTR"></span>. The source for that romanization,
mimeni NOT mi-meni, is the original <a href="http://library.princeton.edu/departments/tsd/katmandu/hebrew/roman/mis37.html">
romanization FAQ</a> compiled by Rachel and Joan. I could find no discussion in the heb-naco
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=heb-naco%40lists.service.ohio-state.edu&q=mimeni&x=0&y=0">
archives</a>, so perhaps Joan could chime in on the reasoning. </span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW">In the meantime, I also looked at the
<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/~rsimon/hebnaco.html">cataloging FAQ</a> compiled by Rachel, which, though a bit dated, is still a treasure trove of valuable information. For our purposes, the entry under “<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/~rsimon/levadi.html">levadi
or le-vadi</a>” is instructive: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW">In Even-Shoshan under "lamed" there is an entry for: " lamed (sheva) bet (patah) dalet"; under "bet" there is the following: "lamed (sheva) bet (patah)
dalet, bet (hirek) lamed (sheva) bet (patah) dalet, mem (hirek) lamed (sheva) bet (patah) dalet, see lamed (sheva) bet (patah) dalet."
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW">Therefore, this is *not* a case where Even-Shoshan shows the same word under more than one entry element. He shows the word under lamed, and under bet
he refers the reader to the lamed entry. In short, he treats this compound as a "word" beginning with lamed. Therefore again, there's no "more 'analytical'" option to be chosen-- he doesn't give an option at all. So: levadi is correct. Even-Shoshan
does say, in the "levad" entry, that the word comes from "le-" plus "bad." But
<span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">it's the fact that he doesn't give an *entry* for it under "bad" that's critical</span>.
</span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">For </span>
<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">ממני</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span>, under
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">מ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span> there is an entry for
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">ממנה/ממנו</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span> and
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">ממני</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span>, both of which refer to the entry
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">מן</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span>. There are also entries for
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">מנה, מנו</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span> (with a segol under the mem’s)
but <span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">no corresponding </span>
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow;mso-fareast-language:KO">מני</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span>.
Perhaps that is the reason for mimeni, but should it be mi-menah and mi-menu? (LC shows 1 mi-menah; 19 mimenah; 15 mi-menu; 32 mimenu. There are also 5 mi-menO and 5 mimenO [different]; there’s no such thing…) Again, Joan, we’d appreciate your input.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">The more critical question at this time is, Heidi and Joan, was there a reason the passage from
<i>HCM</i> was not included in <i>HCM-RDA</i>? Should it be reinstated?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Thanks and apologies for my verbosity… Kol tuv and
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:KO">שבת שלום</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>,
Jasmin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Galron, Joseph [mailto:galron.1@osu.edu]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 07, 2019 5:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shinohara, Jasmin; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">בגלל</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bedi’avad has no reference to another entry. There is no such a word in ES as Di’avad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There is also no reference in Bahem (or Bahen)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">With Bilvad – There is a reference to Levad – so I would not change it to Bilvad, but leave it as Bi-levad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The same is with Ka’et – there is a reference to ‘Et<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There is no reference in Kefi (and also Lefi), Levad,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There is no reference to Ma’an in Lema’an<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">But there are references to Min from Mi-meni, Mi-menah, Mi-meno and so on. (those I would continue to hyphen)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Seli, shelkha, shelak and so on, do not have prefixes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I am heading home </span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Yossi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">––<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
<br>
Head, <a href="http://guides.osu.edu/c.php?g=337806&p=2274681"><span style="color:#0563C1">Hebraica & Jewish Studies Library</span></a><br>
and German Language and Literature Librarian<br>
305 G Thompson Memorial Library<br>
The Ohio State University Libraries <br>
1858 Neil Ave. Mall<br>
Columbus, Ohio 43210 USA<br>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918<br>
Mobile: (614) 285-4290<br>
E-Mail: galron.1@osu.edu or jgalron@gmail.com<br>
<br>
<b>Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature</b>:<br>
<a href="http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
<b>Union List of Digitized Jewish Historic Newspapers and Periodicals</b><br>
<a href="http://go.osu.edu/jpress"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://go.osu.edu/jpress</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino@pobox.upenn.edu> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Galron, Joseph <galron.1@osu.edu>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: <span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
בגלל</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I hear the concern, Yossi, but I’m afraid we’ve already started down the proverbial slope. Per the
<a href="http://rascat.pbworks.com/w/page/109347700/Romanization%20FAQ">FAQ</a>, we’ve agreed to romanize the words as</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bediʻavad</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bahem</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bilvad</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Kaʻet</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Kefi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Levad</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Lemaʻan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Lefi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Mimeni</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sheli</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">No one can argue for Shvil since the sheva na’ at the beginning of a word requires it to be Shevil. No one can argue for Birushalayim because there is no E-Sh. entry for the compound.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">So do I hear consensus on Biglal (and Bishvil – when it means “because/on behalf of”; otherwise bi/ba-shevil when it means “on a/the path)?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Heb-naco [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 07, 2019 12:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">בגלל</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">It is “dangerous” going to Biglal or Bishvil – tomorrow we will say: If it is Bishvil so why not change it to Shvil
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">We also Romanize </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">בירושלים
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D">to “Bi-Yerushalayim” and not to “Birushalayim”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Yossi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco <<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 7, 2019 12:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gottschalk, Haim <<a href="mailto:hgot@loc.gov">hgot@loc.gov</a>>; 'Hebrew Name Authority Funnel' <<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] <span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
בגלל</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi, Haim, bi-gelal would be correct if the
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ב</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">is considered a prefix to the word </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">גלל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1F497D"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>.
But since there is a direct entry for the word as a whole, I’m asking if we should romanize it as a whole word instead of as a compound word.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks, Jasmin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Gottschalk, Haim [<a href="mailto:hgot@loc.gov">mailto:hgot@loc.gov</a>]
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<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 07, 2019 12:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shinohara, Jasmin; 'Hebrew Name Authority Funnel'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">בגלל</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#C0504D">I think it should be “biglal” and not “bi-gelal” because of the sheva being treat as a sheva nach (which is how it is in the Alcalay). This is in my humble opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#C0504D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#C0504D">~Haim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#C0504D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco <<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 07, 2019 11:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Heb-NACO] <span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
בגלל</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA">Hello Collective Wisdom, please remind me: if there’s an entry in E-Sh., even if it ends with a “see also”, is that sufficient justification for romanizing the word as a word as opposed to a compound?
E.g. </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:KO">בגלל</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">
</span><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA">has a direct entry, so I’d think it would be romanized biglal (NOT bigelal because as a whole word, the sheva would be considered merahef, ignored in romanization), but the entry also says “see
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:KO">גלל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>”. So which is it:
Biglal or Bi-gelal?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA">Thanks, Jasmin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jasmin Shinohara<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hebraica Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">University of Pennsylvania<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">3420 Walnut Street<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">T. 215-746-6397<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:jshino@upenn.edu">jshino@upenn.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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