<div dir="ltr">I do agree that "likateli" would be incorrect by all the rules. However, even knowing that the Romanization rules usually disregard pronunciation, I think the more we deviate from what a patron intuitively would type, the less effective the system becomes. I have no solution for that. Perhaps every time there is a major change in the system we'd do well polling a few users for reactions. My two cents.<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Neil</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Joan Biella <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jbiella2632@gmail.com" target="_blank">jbiella2632@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I vaguely remember LC endorsing “likateti” many years ago, in response to overwhelming public pressure—but there is no doubt at all that that romanization is “incorrect” by all the rules.  If examples still exist in the database, they really should be fixed!  My two cents.<div><br></div><div>Joan<br><div><br><div id="m_-5786623566482216853AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPad</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br>On Apr 25, 2018, at 3:59 AM, Janet Shamir <<a href="mailto:Janet.Shamir@nli.org.il" target="_blank">Janet.Shamir@nli.org.il</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>

<div class="m_-5786623566482216853WordSection1">

<p class="MsoNormal">This problem occurs with all verbs that combine a root that ends with a Dalet and a suffix beginning with a Tav. Some examples:<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Avadti, bagadta, ra ʻadt, limadtem, nilkadten, etc.<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">It is also common with roots ending with a Ṭet under the same circumstances:

<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white">Liḳaṭti</span> (and not <span style="background:white">

liḳaṭeti!)</span>, <span style="background:white">shafaṭt</span>a, hibaṭtem, etc.<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Janet<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>---<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d">Janet Shamir<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d">Hebrew Cataloging Department<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d">National Library of Israel<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" dir="RTL" style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed">

<span dir="LTR" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Heb-naco [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces+<wbr>janet.shamir=nli.org.il@lists.<wbr>osu.edu</a>]

<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shinohara, Jasmin<br>

<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:35 PM<br>

<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>

<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] moladeti or moladti<u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Great, Joan, I’ll add it to the list. Thanks, Jasmin<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>

<div>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Heb-naco [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@<wbr>lists.osu.edu</a>]

<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joan Biella<br>

<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:22 PM<br>

<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>

<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] moladeti or moladti<u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">A similar problem occurs with “hulad(e)ti.”  This could be added to the list, as an example of verbs with this combination of consonants.<u></u><u></u></p>

<div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Joan<u></u><u></u></p>

<div id="m_-5786623566482216853AppleMailSignature">

<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPad<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>

On Apr 12, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <<a href="mailto:jshino@pobox.upenn.edu" target="_blank">jshino@pobox.upenn.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">

<div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Thank you, all, for weighing it. I’ve added the word to our romanization FAQ on the

<a href="http://rascat.pbworks.com/w/page/109347700/Romanization%20FAQ" target="_blank">wiki</a> (and updated the printable version, too, also attached; may be worth a quick review.

</span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d">J</span><span style="color:#1f497d">)</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>

<div>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Heb-naco [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@<wbr>lists.osu.edu</a>]

<b>On Behalf Of </b>Janet Shamir<br>

<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 12, 2018 2:30 AM<br>

<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>

<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] moladeti or moladti</span><u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">It's a </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">משקל סגולי</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>.

 Treat the sheva as you would treat the sheva in words such as </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">כַּלְבִּי</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d">

</span><span style="color:#1f497d">or </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">מַחְתַּרְתִּי</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>:

 moladti.</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I'm assuming those who added the e did it instinctively, or thought it was a sheva na’ based on pronunciation + the segol under the dalet in

</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">מולדת</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">The dagesh in the tav is a good sign that the sheva is NOT na’, but with biblical words it's always better to double-check.</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d">---</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d">Janet Shamir</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d">Hebrew Cataloging Department</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1f497d">National Library of Israel</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" dir="RTL" style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed">

<span dir="LTR" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span dir="LTR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Heb-naco [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces+<wbr>janet.shamir=nli.org.il@lists.<wbr>osu.edu</a>]

<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shinohara, Jasmin<br>

<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 12, 2018 1:51 AM<br>

<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>

<b>Subject:</b> [Heb-NACO] moladeti or moladti</span><u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">I would think it’s the latter, but there are many records (PCC and DLC) with the former. There is a sheva under the dalet and the taf has a dagesh and a hirik (<span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">מוֹלַדְתִּי</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>).

 As far as I can tell the sheva is not na’ (and if it’s merahef, it’s also disregarded per romanization rules), so then why the e after the d? We’ve long established that pronunciation is not the arbiter, the vocalization is, so what am I missing?<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Jasmin<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">---<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Jasmin Shinohara<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Hebraica Cataloging Librarian<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">University of Pennsylvania<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">3420 Walnut Street<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">T. 215-746-6397<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:jshino@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jshino@upenn.edu</a><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">

<div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><rom FAQ printable april_2018.docx><u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">

<div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>

Heb-naco mailing list<br>

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<a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/heb-naco</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</div>

</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>Heb-naco mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/heb-naco</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>

Heb-naco mailing list<br>

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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><b style="font-size:12pt">Neil M.

Frau-Cortes, Ph.D. </b></span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:x-small">(he, him, his)</span></p>

<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger</span></p>

<p><br></p>

<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">University of Maryland</span></p><p><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri;font-size:14.6667px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">4109 </span><span style="font-size:12.8px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">McKeldin Library</span></p><p><span style="color:black;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12.8px">College Park, MD 20742</span></p><p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">

Phone (301) 405-9337</span></p>

<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"><span style="color:blue"><a href="http://nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span></span><span style="color:black"></span></p><p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">ORCID ID: </span><span style="color:rgb(73,74,76);font-family:"Noto Sans",sans-serif;font-size:12px"><a href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-1881-1405" target="_blank">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-1881-1405</a></span></p><p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"><br></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

</div>