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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Yes, the Cataloging Committee did recently review psefas/pesefas, but IIRC the decision was to maintain the status quo. I don’t recall
what factors went into making that decision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">As for following Alcalay’s vocalization, I’m not sure how that’s helpful since he can be so inconsistent. Take the example of [psych],
for which he has the following entries:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhah (for Psyche, myth.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhoanaliṭi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhoanaliṭiḳai<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikho’analisah (-zah)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhogeni<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhozah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhografah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhografyah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhoṭekhni<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhonṭekhniḳah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikholog<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhologi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">BUT, the first exception with a sheva<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Pesikhologyah, followed by a bunch of different types of psychology, NONE of one which have a sheva under the peh:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhologyah geneṭit/hevdelit/ḥinukhit/le-ta’aśiyah/mashṿah/ and on, and on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">THEN, another exception with a sheva
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Pesikhologizatsyah, followed by more entries with NO sheva:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhologism<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhosomaṭi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhofisi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhofisikah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhopat<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhopatologi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhopatologyah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">THEN, a final exception with a sheva
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Pesikhopati, followed by more entries with NO sheva:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhopatyah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhi’aṭor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhi’aṭri, and the last,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Psikhi’aṭriyah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">I cannot find any logic behind which words are vocalized and which are not, but it contradicts Heidi’s principle below that words based
on a word with a sheva would also have a sheva. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Nevertheless, Alcalay is consistent with his entries for [dram], which makes my question moot, if not food for thought…
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Deramah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Deramaṭurg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Dermaṭurgiyah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Deramaṭizatsyah<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Deramati<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">Deramatiyut<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">(I didn’t see them till now, which is what prompted the original email. Apologies, Jasmin)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu@lists.osu.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joan Biella<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 29, 2016 7:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">דרמ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">The rule being followed here is the one that says Alcalay's vocalization determines the romanization of words with ambiguous initial shevas. If his dictionary prints the sheva, we romanize it as "e." This
rule was laid down for the benefit of catalogers who don't have access to spoken Hebrew sources, and ensures a standard romanization for everyone.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Perhaps it is time to reconsider this rule, as some catalogers in some circumstances certainly find it annoying. The recent exchange about psefas/pesefas dealt with the same issue. Should this be discussed
seriously by the cataloging committee?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Joan<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes <<a href="mailto:nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">No offense, but have you ever tried to explain the crazy "deramah" exception to somebody who is not a Hebrew cataloger?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Whoever has the power could just have eliminated the exception instead of adding to it.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">All linguistic systems tend to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regularization_(linguistics)" target="_blank">
regularization</a>. In any codification system, the more exceptions you add to rules, the less effective the code is.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" dir="RTL" style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed">
<span lang="HE">שבת שלום ומעדים לשמחה</span><span dir="LTR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" dir="RTL" style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed">
<span lang="HE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Neil<span lang="HE" dir="RTL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Heidi G Lerner <<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I would certainly think so. I can't think why not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">The wod, while not of themselves completely foreign words: they are based on one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Just my thoughts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Best, Heidi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Heidi G. Lerner<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Metadata Dept.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Stanford University Libraries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Stanford, CA 94305-6004<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">ph:
<a href="tel:650-725-9953" target="_blank">650-725-9953</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">fax:
<a href="tel:650-725-1120" target="_blank">650-725-1120</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">e-mail:
<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> Shinohara, Jasmin <<a href="mailto:jshino@pobox.upenn.edu" target="_blank">jshino@pobox.upenn.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Heidi G Lerner<br>
<b>Subject:</b> words starting with </span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">דרמ</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>-</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">HCM2 clearly states
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">דרמה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
as exception to vocalization of foreign loan words (“</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">first
</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">she</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">ṿ</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">a
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as a
</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">she</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">ṿ</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">a
na</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">ḥ</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">…”</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">
cf. p. 19). Do other words starting with that </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">“</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">root</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">”</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">
follow that same exception, e.g. <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">דרמטורגיה, דרמטי, דרמטיזציה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>, etc.?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Thank, Jasmin</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Jasmin Shinohara<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Hebraica Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">University of Pennsylvania<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">3420 Walnut Street<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">T.
<a href="tel:215-746-6397" target="_blank">215-746-6397</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">F.
<a href="tel:215-573-9610" target="_blank">215-573-9610</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><a href="mailto:jshino@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jshino@upenn.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="color:black">Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:black">Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:black">McKeldin Library</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:black">University of Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone <a href="tel:%28301%29%20405-9337" target="_blank">(301) 405-9337</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:black"><a href="http://nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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