<p dir="ltr">Colleagues, <br>
We need to be careful in deciding to change our practice. </p>
<p dir="ltr">One argument that was raised (and I agree with it) is the fact that no native speaker says: Deramah or Pesikhologyah, etc.<br>
But also no native speaker of Hebrew would say Tsefat for צפת or Teveryah for טבריה. <br>
But we romanize the name טברסקי as Tverski (Twersky) and not as Teverski. <br>
Yossi<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 11, 2015 11:18 AM, "Yossi Galron" <<a href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com">jgalron@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Semadar (or do you prefer Smadar :-)<br>
The examples you brought are not according to the practice we were using and are not "correct", but in general I support the discussion and we need to reconsider the matter.<br>
Kol tuv<br>
Yossi [also not according to the rules]<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 11, 2015 11:10 AM, "sshtuhl" <<a href="mailto:sshtuhl@upenn.edu" target="_blank">sshtuhl@upenn.edu</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have
over ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah
genetit, psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah
shimushit without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise,
there is pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency
confuses matters.<br>
Smadar<br>
<br>
<div>On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt">
<div style="direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt">Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop
using Alcalay as an authority. Maybe those two cases are
typos.<br>
So right now we have:<br>
kriminologyah<br>
statistiskah<br>
but deramah.<br>
<br>
psikhologyah<br>
psikhi, etc.<br>
but pesefas.<br>
<br>
Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a
sheva under the first letter.
<br>
<br>
The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these
words as loan words and not put in the sheva na.<br>
<br>
Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current
usage? How would a reader know about this obscure, case by
case rule?
<br>
<br>
I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah
or pesefas. <br>
<br>
I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the
system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
<br>
<br>
Barry<br>
<div><br>
Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.<br>
Judaica Specialist<br>
University of Toronto Libraries <br>
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5<br>
Canada</div>
<div style="font-family:Times New Roman;color:#000000;font-size:16px">
<hr>
<div style="direction:ltr"><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco
[<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca@lists.osu.edu</a>]
on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#ffffff;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p>I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is
correct and he went to a valid reference work. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Bes, Heidi</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica
Cataloging are quite clear:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div><i>The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an
initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as
a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is
necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a
case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain
the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the
prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-,
ki-, li-.</i></div>
<div><i>ALA-LC Romanization:</i></div>
<div><i>Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.</i></div>
<div><i>ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.</i></div>
<div><i>Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon
li-ḳriminologyah.</i></div>
<div><i>אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה</i></div>
<div><i>but:</i></div>
<div><i>deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]</i></div>
<div><i>A few loan words are also treated as though
exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/
non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded
by an open syllable.</i></div>
<div><i>be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in
Poland)</i></div>
<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#ffffff;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p>Heidi G. Lerner</p>
<p>Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica</p>
<p>Metadata Dept.</p>
<p>Stanford University Libraries</p>
<p>Stanford, CA 94305-6004</p>
<p>ph: <a href="tel:650-725-9953" value="+16507259953" target="_blank">650-725-9953</a></p>
<p>fax: <a href="tel:650-725-1120" value="+16507251120" target="_blank">650-725-1120</a></p>
<p>e-mail: <a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank"><heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu></a> on behalf
of Jay Rovner <a href="mailto:JAROVNER@JTSA.EDU" target="_blank"><JAROVNER@JTSA.EDU></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization
Question</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I forgot the dictionary tallies
of preceding messages. I have only Alcalay,
from which I conclude that we are not here
Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather,
Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition
treats <i>pesefas</i> and <i>deramah</i> as
Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first
consonant with a
<i>sheva, </i>which it does not do for <i>psikholog</i>.
This is not a question of etymology, but of
usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce
the
<i>sheva</i> of <i>pesafas </i>if only
because that helps them accent the final
syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of
other mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do
not -- regard in our Romanizing).</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">
JR</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Jay
Rovner, PhD</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Manuscript
Bibliographer</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">The
Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">5501
Library</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">3080
Broadway</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">New
York City, New York 10027</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">(212)
678-8045</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p>
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Please note:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1f497d">The JTS Library’s archives
are temporarily to accommodate packing of
our Special Collections in advance of our
rebuilding project. The archives will reopen
on January 4, 2016, in the Temporary Library
located on the 7th floor of JTS’s Kripke and
Schiff buildings.</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1f497d">The Special Collections are
closed for approximately four years.
Reference services for the Special
Collections will continue throughout this
period. Please be sure to check for digital
copies of manuscripts and rare books. </span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1f497d">For help in finding what you
might need, please email
<a href="mailto:sadiamant@jtsa.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#1f497d">sadiamant@jtsa.edu</span></a>
or <a href="mailto:srr@jtsa.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#1f497d">srr@jtsa.edu</span></a>
with Special Collections requests, or our
<a href="mailto:library@jtsa.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#1f497d">reference
librarians</span></a> or visit the
Library’s
<a href="http://www.jtsa.edu/The_Library.xml" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#1f497d">website</span></a>.
</span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p>
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Heb-naco
[<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Shinohara<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 09, 2015
3:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
Romanization Question</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;color:black">
</p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;color:black">
Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the
Greek word starts with a psi. Does that make
any difference to how we want to treat it?</p>
<div>
<p>
On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">… which kind of shows that
the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p>
<b> </b></p>
<p>
<b>Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.</b></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">Judaica,
Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">McKeldin Library</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">University of
Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone <a href="tel:%28301%29%20405-9337" value="+13014059337" target="_blank">(301) 405-9337</a></span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:nfrau@umd.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p>
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Heb-naco [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Yossi Galron<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization
Question</span></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Heidi, <br>
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not
Psefas.<br>
Yossi</p>
<div>
<p>
On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner"
<<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Based
on the conversation I agree with Yosi.</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Unless
there is strong disagreement we shall
romanize </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span dir="RTL" lang="HE">פסיפס</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">as
"psefas"</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Best,
Heidi</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Heidi
G. Lerner</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Metadata
Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Metadata
Dept.</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Stanford
University Libraries</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Stanford,
CA 94305-6004</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">ph:
<a href="tel:650-725-9953" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
650-725-9953</a></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">fax:
<a href="tel:650-725-1120" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
650-725-1120</a></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">e-mail:
<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
lerner@stanford.edu</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p>
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div align="center">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div>
<p>
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
Heb-naco <<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>>
on behalf of Yossi Galron <<a href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">jgalron@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 9,
2015 12:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority
Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
Romanization Question</span></p>
<div>
<p>
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I
wouldn't change our practice.<br>
Just lazy.<br>
Yossi</span></p>
<div>
<p>
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">On
Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl"
<<a href="mailto:sshtuhl@upenn.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">sshtuhl@upenn.edu</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
<p>
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Hi
all,<br>
We had an interesting discussion
about the Romanization of
foreign-loan words. Can we get
to any agreement about how to
Romanize the word
</span><span dir="RTL" lang="HE">פסיפס</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
Thanks,<br>
Smadar<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Smadar Shtuhl<br>
Hebraica Library Specialist<br>
University of Pennsylvania<br>
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center<br>
3420 Walnut Street<br>
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206<br>
F. <a href="tel:215-573-9610" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
215-573-9610</a><br>
<a href="mailto:sshtuhl@upenn.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">sshtuhl@upenn.edu</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Heb-naco mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Heb-naco mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a></p>
</div>
<p>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New';color:black">_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New';color:black">Heb-naco mailing list</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New';color:black"><a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a></pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New';color:black"><a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;color:black">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Heb-naco mailing list
<a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>
<a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. <a href="tel:215-573-9610" value="+12155739610" target="_blank">215-573-9610</a>
<a href="mailto:sshtuhl@upenn.edu" target="_blank">sshtuhl@upenn.edu</a>
</pre>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Heb-naco mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>