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<p>This is an issue that needs to discussed by the members of the AJL RAS Cataloging Committee. I will write up a draft or proposals on this issue and submit it to the Committee.</p>
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<p>Best, Heidi (Chair, RAS Cataloging Committee, AJL)</p>
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<p>Heidi G. Lerner</p>
<p>Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica</p>
<p>Metadata Dept.</p>
<p>Stanford University Libraries</p>
<p>Stanford, CA 94305-6004</p>
<p>ph: 650-725-9953</p>
<p>fax: 650-725-1120</p>
<p>e-mail: lerner@stanford.edu</p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Barry Walfish <barry.walfish@utoronto.ca><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question</font>
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<div style="direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:10pt">Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.<br>
So right now we have:<br>
kriminologyah<br>
statistiskah<br>
but deramah.<br>
<br>
psikhologyah<br>
psikhi, etc.<br>
but pesefas.<br>
<br>
Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva under the first letter.
<br>
<br>
The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan words and not put in the sheva na.<br>
<br>
Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?
<br>
<br>
I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or pesefas. <br>
<br>
I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
<br>
<br>
Barry<br>
<div><br>
Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.<br>
Judaica Specialist<br>
University of Toronto Libraries <br>
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5<br>
Canada</div>
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<div id="divRpF852001" style="direction:ltr"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca@lists.osu.edu] on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [lerner@stanford.edu]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question<br>
</font><br>
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<p>I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to a valid reference work. </p>
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</p>
<p>Bes, Heidi</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite clear:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p></p>
<div><i>The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain the effect
of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.</i></div>
<div><i>ALA-LC Romanization:</i></div>
<div><i>Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.</i></div>
<div><i>ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.</i></div>
<div><i>Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.</i></div>
<div><i>אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה</i></div>
<div><i>but:</i></div>
<div><i>deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]</i></div>
<div><i>A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable.</i></div>
<div><i>be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)</i></div>
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<div id="Signature">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt; color:#000000; background-color:#FFFFFF; font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p>Heidi G. Lerner</p>
<p>Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica</p>
<p>Metadata Dept.</p>
<p>Stanford University Libraries</p>
<p>Stanford, CA 94305-6004</p>
<p>ph: 650-725-9953</p>
<p>fax: 650-725-1120</p>
<p>e-mail: lerner@stanford.edu</p>
</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner <JAROVNER@JTSA.EDU><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages. I have only Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a
Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats <i>pesefas</i> and <i>deramah</i> as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a
<i>sheva, </i>which it does not do for <i>psikholog</i>. This is not a question of etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce the
<i>sheva</i> of <i>pesafas </i>if only because that helps them accent the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do not -- regard in our Romanizing).</span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:windowtext"> Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Shinohara<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question</span></p>
</div>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black">
Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a psi. Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it?</p>
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On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:</p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">… which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
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<b> </b></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black">
<b>Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.</b></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt">McKeldin Library</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt">University of Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone (301) 405-9337</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Heb-naco [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Yossi Galron<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black">
</p>
<p>Heidi, <br>
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.<br>
Yossi</p>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black">
On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">lerner@stanford.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span dir="RTL" lang="HE">פסיפס</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">as "psefas"</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Best, Heidi</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Heidi G. Lerner</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Metadata Dept.</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Stanford University Libraries</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Stanford, CA 94305-6004</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">ph: <a href="tel:650-725-9953" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">
650-725-9953</a></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">fax:
<a href="tel:650-725-1120" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">
650-725-1120</a></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">e-mail:
<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">
lerner@stanford.edu</a></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Heb-naco <<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>>
on behalf of Yossi Galron <<a href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">jgalron@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black; background:white">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
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<p style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I wouldn't change our practice.<br>
Just lazy.<br>
Yossi</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black; background:white">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <<a href="mailto:sshtuhl@upenn.edu" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">sshtuhl@upenn.edu</a>> wrote:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif; color:black; background:white">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Hi all,<br>
We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize the word
</span><span dir="RTL" lang="HE">פסיפס</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
Thanks,<br>
Smadar<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Smadar Shtuhl<br>
Hebraica Library Specialist<br>
University of Pennsylvania<br>
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center<br>
3420 Walnut Street<br>
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206<br>
F. <a href="tel:215-573-9610" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">
215-573-9610</a><br>
<a href="mailto:sshtuhl@upenn.edu" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">sshtuhl@upenn.edu</a><br>
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<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:10pt; font-family:'Courier New'; color:black"><a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank" style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a></pre>
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