<div dir="ltr">Admor functions as a title (i.e. Rabbi, Haham, Av bet din (<a href="http://a.bd" target="_blank">a.bd</a>.) If used without qualifiers it would be like using Bishop, Cardinal, Patriarch without specifying diocese or sect, or active years, and is more appropriate to the MARC 374. Admor mi-(name of Kehilah/place) is more appropriate as the cross reference even if it is not a direct phrase<div>(Example heading Rymanower, Ẓevi Hirsh,|d1778-1847<br><div> have the cross reference Admor, mi-Rimanov,|d1778-1747 <div> Sefer Beʼerot ha-mayim ha-shalem :|bosef maʼamarim ʻal ha-Torah u-moʻadim liḳuṭim yeḳarim, śiḥot ḳodesh, minhagim, ṿe-igrot ḳodesh /|c... Tsevi ha-kohen ... me-Rimanov.</div><div><br><a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=NKDXAAAAMAAJ&dq=%D7%90%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A8&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false" target="_blank">https://books.google.com/books?id=NKDXAAAAMAAJ&dq=%D7%90%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A8&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false</a>)<br><div><br></div><div>or </div><div>example ARN 2703933 Daṿid Yitsḥaḳ Ayziḳ, ǂc mi-Sḳolye</div><div>to have the cross reference </div><div>4000 Admor mi-Sḳolye, </div><div>but not the cross reference </div><div>4000 Admor ha-G. ha-Ḳ. (Admor ha-gaon ha-kadosh)</div><div>the later is not useful or relevant.</div><div><br></div><div>Example ARN 2859042 </div><div><div>1001 Ḳahn, Avraham Yitsḥaḳ</div></div><div>the 4xx Admor Shelita adds nothing.</div><div>the supporting 670 has a qualifying Kehilah so that an unqualified Admor should not be a cross reference</div><div><div>670 His Sefer Divre emunah, 1989 or 1990: ǂb pref. (Avraham Yitsḥaḳ Ḳahn; <font color="#ff0000">Admor Sheliṭa</font>) v. 2, t.p. (Rabi Avraham Yitsḥaḳ, z. ts. ṿe-ḳ.l.l.h.h.; asher or ḳedushato zaraḥ be-ʻi. ha-ḳ. Yerushala[y]im ... ḳehila ḳadisha <font color="#ff0000">Toldot Aharon</font>)</div></div><div><br></div><div><br>the phrase Shelita or Zatsal, should not be part of the name heading, (as with other generic descriptors (ha-kadosh, ha-gaon, ha- harif etc.) and should be omitted/skipped and removed from records when being worked on <br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 2:02 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:heb-naco-request@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-request@lists.osu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Heb-naco mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Haggadah for Jewish Christians (Taub, Aaron)<br>
2. Re: Admor Shelita as a cross reference for Hassidic Rebbes<br>
(Kuperman, Aaron)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:23:10 -0400<br>
From: "Taub, Aaron" <<a href="mailto:atau@loc.gov" target="_blank">atau@loc.gov</a>><br>
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Haggadah for Jewish Christians<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:0F69EAE9F3A5114F8C1A62EE3B6FB41F78ACCA4BCF@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV" target="_blank">0F69EAE9F3A5114F8C1A62EE3B6FB41F78ACCA4BCF@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Dear Barry, Heidi, and Group,<br>
<br>
Judaica catalogers at LC have not always handled materials generated by Messianic Jews/Jews for Jesus/Jewish Christians. However, there are numerous Passover materials from this constituency in the LC database. They are typically classed in BV199.P25 [Passover services (Christian observance) with the subject heading Passover $x Christian observance. If the actual Haggadah text (excluding the rubrics) is the standard Haggadah text, you can add Seder $x Liturgy $v Texts. I recommend following that model.<br>
<br>
I hope this helps.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Aaron T.<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Heb-naco [mailto:<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Batau" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces+atau</a>=<a href="mailto:loc.gov@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">loc.gov@lists.osu.edu</a>] On Behalf Of Barry Walfish<br>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 4:41 PM<br>
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Haggadah for Jewish Christians<br>
<br>
Thanks, Heidi,<br>
<br>
I'll follow your suggestions for now.<br>
<br>
Shanah tovah to you and yours,<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Barry<br>
<br>
Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.<br>
Judaica Specialist<br>
University of Toronto Libraries<br>
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5<br>
Canada<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Heb-naco [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>] on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a>]<br>
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 11:15 AM<br>
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel (<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>>)<br>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Haggadah for Jewish Christians<br>
<br>
Hi Barry,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I will look forward to LC's response on this issue. I looked for related resources in the bibliographic file and found an LC record for a 1988 book entitled: Siddur for messianic Jews. It appears that LC did not consider this prayer-book a true siddur. The cataloger did not provide a uniform title for this work and entered it under the title proper with a subject heading "Jewish Christianns--Prayerbooks and devotions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If were to follow this model I would think that entering it under the title proper would be appropriate and using perhaps the following subject headings:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Haggadah--Adaptations<br>
<br>
Jewish Christians--Prayers and devotions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I really don't know if creating a preferred title "Haggadah (Jewish Christians)" is correct or not. This gets into a discussion that I don't feel qualified to enter into.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Best, Heidi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Heidi G. Lerner<br>
<br>
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica<br>
<br>
Metadata Dept.<br>
<br>
Stanford University Libraries<br>
<br>
Stanford, CA 94305-6004<br>
<br>
ph: <a href="tel:650-725-9953" value="+16507259953" target="_blank">650-725-9953</a><br>
<br>
fax: <a href="tel:650-725-1120" value="+16507251120" target="_blank">650-725-1120</a><br>
<br>
e-mail: <a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a>><br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=<a href="mailto:stanford.edu@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">stanford.edu@lists.osu.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Blerner" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces+lerner</a>=<a href="mailto:stanford.edu@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">stanford.edu@lists.osu.edu</a>>> on behalf of Barry Walfish <<a href="mailto:barry.walfish@utoronto.ca" target="_blank">barry.walfish@utoronto.ca</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:barry.walfish@utoronto.ca" target="_blank">barry.walfish@utoronto.ca</a>>><br>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:36 PM<br>
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel (<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>>)<br>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Haggadah for Jewish Christians<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Safranim,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I recently catalogued a messianic Haggadah and was surprised that I could not find a proper title for such a work. It was listed under Haggadah in OCLC.<br>
<br>
Unless I missed it, I'd like to propose that there be added to the authority file a heading for Haggadah (Jewish-Christian) or something along those lines.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Any thoughts?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Barry<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.<br>
<br>
Judaica and Theology Specialist<br>
<br>
Collection Development Department and<br>
<br>
Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library<br>
<br>
University of Toronto Library<br>
<br>
130 St. George St.<br>
<br>
Toronto, ON<br>
<br>
Canada M5S 1A5<br>
<br>
phone: <a href="tel:416-946-3176" value="+14169463176" target="_blank">416-946-3176</a> or <a href="tel:416-978-4319" value="+14169784319" target="_blank">416-978-4319</a><br>
<br>
fax: <a href="tel:416-978-1667" value="+14169781667" target="_blank">416-978-1667</a> or <a href="tel:416-946-0635" value="+14169460635" target="_blank">416-946-0635</a><br>
<br>
e-mail: <a href="mailto:barry.walfish@utoronto.ca" target="_blank">barry.walfish@utoronto.ca</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:barry.walfish@utoronto.ca" target="_blank">barry.walfish@utoronto.ca</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:57:51 -0400<br>
From: "Kuperman, Aaron" <<a href="mailto:akup@loc.gov" target="_blank">akup@loc.gov</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>" <<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Admor Shelita as a cross reference for<br>
Hassidic Rebbes<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:6D7F242BB22CA74191053C7DEC1E88D78430734048@LCXCLMB02.LCDS.LOC.GOV" target="_blank">6D7F242BB22CA74191053C7DEC1E88D78430734048@LCXCLMB02.LCDS.LOC.GOV</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
They are honorifics, similar to ?Mr.? or ?The honorable? or ?H.R.H.? or ?Ph.D.? or ?Esq.?<br>
<br>
Do we normally include honorifics in name authorities?<br>
<br>
Exception, if someone is known as the ?Admor mi-??????, so wouldn?t we treat it the way we treat any other name.<br>
<br>
Whomever but ?Admor shelitah? in a 400 doesn?t understand.<br>
<br>
From: Heb-naco [mailto:<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Bakup" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces+akup</a>=<a href="mailto:loc.gov@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">loc.gov@lists.osu.edu</a>] On Behalf Of Miriam Gloger<br>
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 2:35 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a><br>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Admor Shelita as a cross reference for Hassidic Rebbes<br>
<br>
The term Admor Shelita ????"? ????"? (Adoni, mori v.e-rabi she-yih.yeh le-orekh yamim t.ovim amen --<br>
my master, teacher, and Rabbi, he should live to the length of good days amen)<br>
is kind of like saying his excellency, or his holiness -- it is an honorific typically used for Hassidic Rebbes. In some cases it is used somewhat correctly as Admor of a place/Congregation<br>
but even in those cases, it probably should have dates because Hassidic groups/communities are dynastic so that there are 1) often several generations of Admor mi-(name the city) 2) in some cases like Satmar, Bobov, Vizhnitz, there are splits, -- so that there are 2 Admor mi-(name the group) at a time writing about the same subject!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Below are a few examples of usage with and without a date. In the second record Shelita $c Admor makes absolutely no sense.<br>
<br>
ARN 6015791<br>
010 nr2003011259<br>
040 DLC-R ?b eng ?c DLC-R ?d OCoLC<br>
1001 Horov?its, Shemu?el Tsevi<br>
4000 Admor Shelit?a<br>
4001 ?????? ?????<br>
4001 ???????, ????? ???<br>
667 Machine-derived non-Latin script reference project.<br>
667 Non-Latin script references not evaluated.<br>
670 Sefer Shivh?e Tehilim, 2000: ?b t.p. (Maran Admor, shelit?a) p. 32 (author of T?ava di-Shemu?el)<br>
670 RLIN, 31 Mar. 2003 ?b (hdg.: Horov?its, Shemu?el Tsevi; author of T?ava di-Shemu?el)<br>
<br>
ARN 9989794<br>
010 no2014136816<br>
040 CSt-HC ?b eng ?e rda ?c CSt-HC ?d DLC<br>
1001 Wassertheil, Chaim Elazar<br>
4000 Admor Shelit?a, ?d active 2014<br>
4001 ?????? ??????<br>
4001 Shelit?a, ?c Admor, ?d active 2014<br>
4001 ??????, ??????<br>
4001 V?assert?hail, H?ayim El?azar<br>
4001 ????????????, ???? ?????<br>
4000 Admor, ?c mi-Rimanov<br>
667 Non-Latin script reference not evaluated.<br>
670 Sefer K?edushat Shabat: ?b title page (Admor Shelit?a)<br>
670 Wikipedia, viewed Oct. 9, 2014 ?b (Rimenov (Hasidic dynatsty; Rabbi Chaim Elazar Wassertheil, rabbi of "Beeras Hamayim" in Borough Bark, Brookyn)<br>
670 National Library of Israel authority file, viewed online Oct. 9, 2014 ?b (hdg.:???????????, ???? ????? = V?assert?hail, H?ayim ?El?azar; xref: ?????? ??????? (???? ???? = Admor mi-Rimanov (Boro Park?))<br>
<br>
--<br>
Miriam Gloger<br>
Librarian II Database Management Team (CMA)<br>
<br>
<a href="tel:%28917%29%20229-9575" value="+19172299575" target="_blank">(917) 229-9575</a><br>
The New York Public Library - BookOps<br>
<br>
Library Services Center<br>
31-11 Thomson Ave<br>
Long Island City, NY 11101-3006<br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><b><font size="4">Miriam Gloger</font></b></span><br><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">Librarian II Database Management Team (CMA)</div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><a value="+19172299575" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">(917) 229-9575</a></div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">The New York Public Library - BookOps</div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">Library Services Center</div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">31-11 Thomson Ave</div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">Long Island City, NY 11101-3006</div></div></div>
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