<html><body><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><div>FYI - interesting discussion below. I am not quite understanding the issue. Works that contain a parallel title do not have to contain expressions of the original resource in other other languages. I work mostly with monographs and some serials and many of these have what RDA defines as a parallel title proper"The title proper in another language and/or script." RDA also tells us in 2.3.2 that we can take the title from any source in the resource. As we know these can be found on title page verso, added title page, caption, running title, cover title. <br></div><div><br></div><div>There has been some confusion on how to code and where to put the parallel title in a MARC environment. In RDA mapping to MARC we put the parallel title proper in a 245 field. However we are also told to provide a note in RDA 2.3.3. "If a parallel title proper is taken from a different source than the title proper, and that fact is considered important for identification, make a note on the source." To the best of my knowledge we are not given specific instruction in the form of an LC-PCC PS on where to locate this note and up until the present time most of us have been doing it in a MARC 246 field:<br></div><div><br></div><div>246 31 - Parallel title<br></div><div><br></div><div>246 15 Added title page title.<br></div><div><br></div><div>246 14 Cover title <br></div><div><br></div><div>and so on.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Ultimately we want to think about what is clearest for the patron while staying true to RDA. They might not understand the concept of a parallel title and providing access to that title combined with a note that clearly indicates where on the resource that title is located is certainly a help instead of a hindrance.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I look forward to comments on my thoughts. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Best, Heidi<br></div><div><br>
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<td>[RDA-L] Re: RE: Re: Title translated by the publisher</td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
<td>Thu, 7 Aug 2014 06:33:42 -0700</td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
<td>Mark Anders Harrison <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:markandersh@gmail.com" target="_blank"><markandersh@gmail.com></a><br data-mce-bogus="1"></td>
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<br>
Hi Vanessa,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please feel free to forward my e-mails. I'd be interested in
hearing of any further discussion as I could find myself in a
similar situation. I agree that the language you italicized is
key. It will be interesting to see what others think of my
reasoning.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a friend of 40 years who chairs the Jewish studies
program at California State University Long Beach. He's not a
librarian, but I might show him the language and examples used
in RDA and see what he thinks just to get a different POV. He
has a mind for debating possible interpretations and was a
lawyer before deciding to teach instead. It might be interesting
to get a academic's POV.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
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<div>MAH</div>
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<div>
<div>On Aug 7, 2014, at 04:51 , Freedman, Vanessa <<a href="mailto:v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk" target="_blank">v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Cambria;
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font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" lang="EN-GB">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Mark</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Yes I’m
talking about cases where the text is entirely in
Hebrew.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As to whether
this constitutes a variant title or a parallel
title, I guess it depends on how you interpret
‘Treat an original title in a language different
from that of the title proper as a parallel title
proper<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>if
it is presented as the equivalent of the title
proper’</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in
2.3.3.1 (my italics). So is an English title on the
title page verso presented as the equivalent of the
title proper? I’m not sure it is, but most RDA
records that I’ve seen do treat it as a parallel
title.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">With your and
Ghada’s permission I would like to forward your
emails to the Heb-NACO email list, as there are many
people on there who have far more experience with
RDA than I do.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best wishes</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
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sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
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<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;" lang="EN-US"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Mark
Anders Harrison [<a href="mailto:markandersh@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:markandersh@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>06
August 2014 14:27<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rda-l@ala.org" target="_blank">rda-l@ala.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[RDA-L]
Re: Title translated by the publisher</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Vanessa:</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> I
understand from what you say that the text is
entirely in Hebrew, but an English translation of
the title is provided in your source of information,
along with the Hebrew title. Is that correct? If so,
would that not constitute a variant title, in which
case using the 246 field would be correct? Even if
this English translation of the title appears on the
title page, if the text is all in Hebrew in that
expression (making it a Hebrew language expression
of the original work), how would the English
rendition of the title in that particular
manifestation be a title proper? It's provided as a
convenience.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">It appears
to me that what the parallel title instructions in
2.3.3 are describing a different situation, which
occurs in a couple of different contexts. Based on
my experience, the example of "Road map of
Switzerland" given in RDA 2.3.3.3 seems to refer to
manifestation in which multiple languages all appear
together, where it would be impossible to even
determine which language is "the original." The
resource was intended to be multilingual from the
outset. Hence, the title for each language is
equally a title proper, and the rule given to follow
the sequence shown in the resource makes perfect
sense because there is no other basis on which to
call one title "proper" and the others secondary.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I am an
Orthodox Christian seminary graduate and having
worked in a theological library I have seen
bilingual Hebrew/English siddurim. While the
original work may have been entirely in Hebrew,
those particular manifestations provided parallel
expressions in Hebrew and English, treating them as
equals (facing pages). Only external knowledge that
Jewish prayer is traditionally in Hebrew would tell
a cataloguer that the Hebrew could/would be
considered primary. We have the same situation arise
with Orthodox Christian prayerbooks for laity, where
a prayerbook is printed with facing pages in Church
Slavonic and English or Greek and English. I don't
know about siddurim, but such Christian books often
manifest unique collections of prayers. That is, the
item at hand is not simply an exemplar of an English
translation of what was a particular work in
Slavonic or Greek. Instead, the compiler chose and
arranged his/her own selection out of MANY possible
prayers for that particular edition and provided
them in English as well as Greek or Slavonic. At the
manifestation level, then, the English expression is
rendered as a complete parallel to the Slavonic or
Greek expression, often right down to the
arrangement of the title page and the typesetting
throughout. Likewise, my grandmother (who was raised
Catholic) had a layman's missal from before Vatican
II that contained facing pages of Latin and English.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">These
examples would again differ from English
translations of works that are officially
promulgated in a specific language like Greek, Latin
or Slavonic. In the Roman Catholic Church in
particular, even the post Vatican II liturgical
texts, are officially all in Latin. That is the
official versions, considered to be uniquely
authoritative are the Latin texts. The new
translations that recently came out under Pope
Benedict XVI illustrate this point in that the new
translations were corrections to conform more
closely to the authoritative Latin originals. In
such cases, the Latin titles are preferred titles,
to be recorded at the work level in an authority
record under RDA 6.23.2.8. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">So that is
my take based on a cursory review of RDA
instructions and my experience with multi-lingual
manifestations/items in Europe and in liturgical
texts. Your use of the 246 field and your added
notation in MARC 041 with a "0" first indicator and
MARC 546 seem warranted to make it clear that what
you are describing is a text entirely in Hebrew, not
a bilingual edition.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;">Sincerely,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;"> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span>Mark Anders Harrison</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style="">Mark
Anders Harrison</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style="">1515 Date
Street, Apt. 202</span></div>
</div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style="">Vista, CA
92083</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style="">iPhone:
505.918.4111</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style=""><a href="mailto:markandersh@gmail.com" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">markandersh@gmail.com</a></span><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;"> </span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </p>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On
Aug 6, 2014, at 02:24 , Freedman, Vanessa <<a href="mailto:v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk" style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br>
<br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;">This is very common in Hebrew books and
under RDA we treat it as a parallel title, see
2.3.3.1 'A parallel title proper is the title
proper in another language and/or script',
2.3.3.2. 'Take parallel titles proper from any
source within the resource', so we would have:<br>
<br>
245$a [Hebrew title proper] = $b [English title]<br>
2461_$i Title on title page verso: $a [English
title]. No guidelines have been given on whether
or not to use second indicator 1 when the parallel
title comes from another location in the resource,
but the current practice among Hebraica
cataloguers seems to be only to use second
indicator 1 when it's a 'true' parallel title.
(You might also get an English title on an added
title page, in which case the second indicator
would be 5)<br>
<br>
Personally I am not very happy with treating the
English title as a parallel title. I think it's
misleading for the catalogue user, implying that
the book is in Hebrew and English, but it seems to
be the only possible interpretation of the RDA
instructions. To make it clear that the book is in
Hebrew only I have been adding an 0410_$a heb and
a 546 In Hebrew only.<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
<br>
Vanessa Freedman<br>
<br>
Vanessa Freedman<br>
Hebrew & Jewish Studies Librarian<br>
UCL Library Services<br>
University College London<br>
Gower Street<br>
London WC1E 6BT<br>
<br>
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7679 2598 (Internal ext. 32598)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7679 7373<br>
E-mail:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk" style="color:
purple; text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">v.freedman@ucl.ac.uk</a><br>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ghadadimashk@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">ghadadimashk@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:ghadadimashk@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">mailto:ghadadimashk@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Sent: 05 August 2014 06:52<br>
To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rda-l@ala.org" style="color:
purple; text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">rda-l@ala.org</a><br>
Subject: [RDA-L] Title translated by the publisher<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
I have some books from the Center for Arab Unity
Studies, the book is originally published in
Arabic, but the publisher here translated the
Arabic title into English and it is found in verso
title page, knowing that the text is not
translated into English.<br>
In this case, should we mention the English title
in Field 246 indicator 1 (parallel title)? or
should we mention it as a note? or can we mention
it in<br>
246 $i title translated by publisher?<br>
Best Regards,<br>
Ghada Dimashk<br>
Lebanese National Library<br>
Cataloging Department<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature">--
Joanna K. Dyla
Head, Metadata Development Unit
Metadata Department
Stanford University Libraries
650-723-2529
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jdyla@Stanford.edu" target="_blank">jdyla@Stanford.edu</a>
</pre>
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<br>
</div><div><br><br></div><div><br></div><div>-- <br></div><div><span name="x"></span>Heidi G. Lerner<br>Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica<br>Metadata Development Unit<br>Stanford University Libraries<br>Stanford, CA 94305-6004<br>e-mail: lerner@stanford.edu<br>ph: 650-725-9953<br>fax: 650-725-1120<br><span name="x"></span><br></div></div></body></html>