<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>If it's Hebrew, then Barzilai.<br><br>Please pardon typos; sent from my iPod.</div><div><br>On Oct 22, 2013, at 7:30 PM, Judith Zupnick <<a href="mailto:judiezup@msn.com">judiezup@msn.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">Is the Hebrew surname Barzilai or Barzilay according to LC Romanization? (to divert slightly from the discussion.. )<br> <br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">From: <a href="mailto:barry.walfish@utoronto.ca"><a href="mailto:barry.walfish@utoronto.ca">barry.walfish@utoronto.ca</a></a><br>To: <a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a><br>Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 17:14:57 +0000<br>Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל<br><br>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">I would agree with Rachel. It should be koktail and laidi like Rubinshtain for Hebrew Koktel would be very misleading. That would be the spelling if there
were no yodim in the word. </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">And also dray for Yiddish three.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Barry</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=<a href="mailto:utoronto.ca@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">utoronto.ca@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rachel Simon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> October 21, 2013 12:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of </span><span lang="HE" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;" dir="RTL">קוקטייל</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">I just came across a similar case, this time with the problematic Romanization in the first word of the title, cataloged by LC:
</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">הליידי של העיר הלבנה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"><span dir="LTR"></span>
= ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Rachel</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a> [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Manuel Frau-Cortes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of </span><span lang="HE" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;" dir="RTL">קוקטייל</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we keep in mind the end user and discoverability.
</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make impossible for people to find things in the catalog! Total “deramah” /
</span><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">דרמה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="CA" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black;"> </span></b></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black;">Neil M. Frau-Cortes</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;">Hebraica Cataloger</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;">McKeldin Library</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;">University of Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone (301) 405-9337</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;"><a href="http://nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:nfrau@umd.edu">nfrau@umd.edu</a></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a> [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert M. TALBOTT<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of </span><span lang="HE" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;" dir="RTL">קוקטייל</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks:</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The way I would habve approached the data</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">24510 Drai matini kotail</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">2463 [vernacular single yud form from ESh</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">2463 Drai martini koktel</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our romanization scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the default form, or a XyX where the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't think of any instances where
double yud represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be wrong). So, for my money the best way to treat would be to transcribe what's on the piece according to usual practice (koktail; add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and
to add the ESh form as an add title.</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Bob</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu">jnof@upenn.edu</a></a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for
</span><span lang="HE" dir="RTL">קוקטיל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US"><span dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Fyi</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title in alternate ketiv since,
for example the reader usually has no idea if the dictionary he is looking for is titled</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">מלון</span><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">or
</span><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">מילון</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Elhanan</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Elhanan Adler
</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Email:
<a href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il">elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il</a></a></span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Fax (home): 972-2-6517129</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a> [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of </span><span lang="HE" style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;" dir="RTL">קוקטייל</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate diacritics) and deleted the extraneous 246. thanks for your prompt response!<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Oops,
<br>
I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was thinking that it appeared on the resource.
</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations should not be as added in 246s. The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers
guidelines and best practices for making variant titles for permutations related to the title proper. There is no discussion onrecording variant or incorrect transliterations (unless found somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses alternative romanizations
in Hebraica Cataloging but only in regards to providing alternative romanizations as references to Hebraica names.</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<div align="center" class="ecxMsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">
<hr width="100%" size="2" align="center">
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span></pre>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
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<br>
-- </span></p>
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<pre><span lang="EN-US">Bob Talbott</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">Hebraica Cataloger</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">UC Berkeley</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">250 Moffitt</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">Berkeley, CA 94720</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US"> </span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">We're happy as fish,</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">as gorgeous as geese,</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">and wonderfully clean in the morning.</span></pre>
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