<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><div>This was discussed at length in an LC presentation at a recent AJL conference. I'll have to review my notes to refresh my memory. In the meantime, you can also view their presentations on the AJL proceedings page, <a href="http://www.jewishlibraries.org/main/Events/PastConferences/ConferenceProceedings.aspx">http://www.jewishlibraries.org/main/Events/PastConferences/ConferenceProceedings.aspx</a>.</div><div><br></div><div>Like Barzilai, though, this is a name, not a noun for which there is vocalization/known pronunciation such as ליידי or קוקטייל. <br><br>Please pardon typos; sent from my iPod.</div><div><br>On Oct 22, 2013, at 7:30 PM, Judith Zupnick <<a href="mailto:judiezup@msn.com"><a href="mailto:judiezup@msn.com">judiezup@msn.com</a></a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">I commonly see Lakewood Romanized in catalog records as Laikvud (diacritical under the v), even though it is pronounced more like Lekvud. Which is correct?<br> <br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">From: <a href="mailto:rsimon@Princeton.EDU"></a><a href="mailto:rsimon@Princeton.EDU"><a href="mailto:rsimon@Princeton.EDU">rsimon@Princeton.EDU</a></a><br>To: <a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"></a><a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a><br>Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:11:15 +0000<br>Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל<br><br>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">I just came across a similar case, this time with the problematic Romanization in the first word of the title, cataloged by LC:
</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">הליידי של העיר הלבנה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"><span dir="LTR"></span>
= ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Rachel</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<div>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=<a href="mailto:princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Manuel Frau-Cortes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we keep in mind the end user and discoverability.
</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make impossible for people to find things in the catalog! Total “deramah” /
</span><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">דרמה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="CA" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="color: black;"> </span></b></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="color: black;">Neil M. Frau-Cortes</span></b><span style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;">Hebraica Cataloger</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;">McKeldin Library</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;">University of Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone (301) 405-9337</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: black; font-size: 11pt;"><a href="http://nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:nfrau@umd.edu"><a href="mailto:nfrau@umd.edu">nfrau@umd.edu</a></a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"></a><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a> [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"></a><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert M. TALBOTT<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">Folks:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">The way I would habve approached the data</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">24510 Drai matini kotail</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">2463 [vernacular single yud form from ESh</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">2463 Drai martini koktel</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our romanization scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the default form, or a XyX where the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't think of any instances where double yud represent
a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be wrong). So, for my money the best way to treat would be to transcribe what's on the piece according to usual practice (koktail; add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh form
as an add title.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">Bob</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu"><a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu">jnof@upenn.edu</a></a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">
קוקטיל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Fyi</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title in alternate ketiv since, for example
the reader usually has no idea if the dictionary he is looking for is titled</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">מלון</span><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;">or
</span><span lang="HE" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;" dir="RTL">מילון</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Elhanan</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Elhanan Adler
</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Email:
<a href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il"><a href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il">elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il</a></a></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Fax (home): 972-2-6517129</span></p>
</div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) currentColor currentColor; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a> [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"><a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span lang="HE" dir="RTL">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate diacritics) and deleted the extraneous 246. thanks for your prompt response!<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Oops,
<br>
I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was thinking that it appeared on the resource.
</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations should not be as added in 246s. The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines
and best practices for making variant titles for permutations related to the title proper. There is no discussion onrecording variant or incorrect transliterations (unless found somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses alternative romanizations in Hebraica
Cataloging but only in regards to providing alternative romanizations as references to Hebraica names.</span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<div align="center" class="ecxMsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">
<hr width="100%" size="2" align="center">
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
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<pre>Bob Talbott</pre>
<pre>Hebraica Cataloger</pre>
<pre>UC Berkeley</pre>
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<pre>Berkeley, CA 94720</pre>
<pre> </pre>
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