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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>For users what will matter is the original Hebrew, and thus the only question is whether the cataloger (through a 246) or the user (using common sense) knows to look under both spellings (same problem with "catalog" vs "catalogue"). I question losing sleep over romanization since any user familiar with the term will look it up in Hebrew rather than in romanization (and as it is, we accommodate only Anglo-Americans, people from other language will romanize quite differently). --Aaron<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is not an official communication from my employer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> heb-naco-bounces+akup=loc.gov@lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+akup=loc.gov@lists.service.ohio-state.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Manuel Frau-Cortes<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span lang=HE dir=RTL>קוקטייל</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we keep in mind the end user and discoverability. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make impossible for people to find things in the catalog! Total “deramah” / </span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>דרמה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span lang=CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span dir=LTR></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='color:black'>Neil M. Frau-Cortes</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>Hebraica Cataloger<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>McKeldin Library<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'>University of Maryland<br>College Park, MD 20742<br>Phone (301) 405-9337<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><a href="nfrau@umd.edu">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert M. TALBOTT<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM<br><b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span lang=HE dir=RTL>קוקטייל</span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Folks:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The way I would habve approached the data<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>24510 Drai matini kotail<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2463 [vernacular single yud form from ESh<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2463 Drai martini koktel<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our romanization scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the default form, or a XyX where the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't think of any instances where double yud represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be wrong). So, for my money the best way to treat would be to transcribe what's on the piece according to usual practice (koktail; add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh form as an add title.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Bob<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for <span lang=HE dir=RTL>קוקטיל</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR></span>?<br><br>On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fyi</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title in alternate ketiv since, for example the reader usually has no idea if the dictionary he is looking for is titled</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>מלון</span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>or </span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>מילון</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Elhanan</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Elhanan Adler </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Email: <a href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fax (home): 972-2-6517129</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Nof<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM<br><b>To:</b> Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof<br><b>Cc:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span lang=HE dir=RTL>קוקטייל</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate diacritics) and deleted the extraneous 246. thanks for your prompt response!<br><br>On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Oops, <br>I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was thinking that it appeared on the resource. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations should not be as added in 246s. The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines and best practices for making variant titles for permutations related to the title proper. There is no discussion onrecording variant or incorrect transliterations (unless found somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses alternative romanizations in Hebraica Cataloging but only in regards to providing alternative romanizations as references to Hebraica names.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Heb-naco mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Heb-naco mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br><a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><br>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><pre>Bob Talbott<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Hebraica Cataloger<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>UC Berkeley<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>250 Moffitt<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Berkeley, CA 94720<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>We're happy as fish,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>as gorgeous as geese,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and wonderfully clean in the morning.<o:p></o:p></pre></div></div></body></html>