<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Holy smokes. Thank you Jasmin, Manuel, and Heidi.<br><br></div>Yes, I have been leaning Elzozishly myself. I discovered a historical atlas this morning (Atlas histori shel am Yisrael / Y. Shapira (in multiple editions)) that kindly includes vowel points and sure enough, on the map showing Jewish settlements in Germany during the Crusades, Elzas (אלזס with a segol and a patah) is written right where it should be.<br>
<br></div>I'm going to poke around a bit more before I commit, but if I find anything definitive, I'll announce with great fanfare. <br><br></div>Cheers<br><br></div>B<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Jasmin Nof <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
my colleague at umd (where i fondly recall having access to <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">(אנציקלופדיה העברית</span> was able to find
the information below. thanks, neil! hope it's helpful, bob.
thank goodness for the 246!<br>
<br>
best wishes and חג שמח, jasmin<br>
<div><br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th nowrap valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
</th>
<td>RE: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization: ayin lamed zayin vav
zayin</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
<td>Tue, 14 May 2013 19:05:57 +0000</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
<td>Manuel Frau-Cortes <a href="mailto:nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank"><nfrau@umd.edu></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
<td>Jasmin Nof <a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank"><jnof@upenn.edu></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">עלזוז</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="CA"><span dir="LTR"></span> doesn’</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">t
appear in the Entsiklopedyah. I looked for versions of
Alsace, but both are spelled with aleph, that is
</span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">אלזס</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="CA"><span dir="LTR"></span> and
</span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">אלזאס</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span dir="LTR"></span>, the last one being the Yiddish regular
spelling. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
only reference I found to
</span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">עלזוז</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="CA"><span dir="LTR"></span> anywhere is in this book:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=OQUVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1357&lpg=PA1357&dq=%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%96%D7%95%D7%96&source=bl&ots=DkmFQimX0z&sig=kqukmhC2wlSZb2dZIrAhJNgJxII&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BYmSUdnQKdHh4AOx44HADw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%96%D7%95%D7%96&f=false" target="_blank">http://books.google.com/books?id=OQUVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1357&lpg=PA1357&dq=%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%96%D7%95%D7%96&source=bl&ots=DkmFQimX0z&sig=kqukmhC2wlSZb2dZIrAhJNgJxII&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BYmSUdnQKdHh4AOx44HADw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%96%D7%95%D7%96&f=false</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As you can see, it relates Elzuz with
Kolmar. Since Colmar is in fact in Alsace, it is safe to say
that Elzuz is Alsace. A possible linguistic explanation of
this strange spelling is that in fact in Alsatian dialect, the
place is pronounced Elsas, with open E (like in <i>bed</i>)
and open A (like in <i>palm</i>). See in Wikipedia: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Therefore, one could romanize it as 'Elzoz.<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u></u> <u></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Neil M. Frau-Cortes</b><br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hebraica
Cataloger<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">McKeldin Library<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">University
of Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone (301) 405-9337<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Jasmin Nof [<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">mailto:jnof@upenn.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 14, 2013 1:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Manuel Frau-Cortes<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fwd: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization: ayin
lamed zayin vav zayin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">hi there, sadly penn moved its <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">אנציקלופדיה העברית</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> to offsite storage many years ago
<snif>, but i fondly remember using the encyclopedia set
that was on the first floor in the reference stacks
(ae30.e5). do you mind going to check if there's an entry for
<span dir="RTL" lang="HE">עלזוז</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>, and if so, how it's vocalized?<br>
<br>
thanks and best wishes for a <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">חג שמח</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>! jasmin
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
-------- Original Message -------- <u></u><u></u></p>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in" nowrap valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><b>Subject: <u></u><u></u></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization: ayin
lamed zayin vav zayin<u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in" nowrap valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><b>Date: <u></u><u></u></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Tue, 14 May 2013 10:26:35 -0700<u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in" nowrap valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><b>From: <u></u><u></u></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Heidi G Lerner <a href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu" target="_blank"><lerner@stanford.edu></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in" nowrap valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><b>Reply-To: <u></u><u></u></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">
<heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in" nowrap valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:right" align="right"><b>To: <u></u><u></u></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:rtalbott@library.berkeley.edu" target="_blank"><rtalbott@library.berkeley.edu></a>,
Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
<a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank"><heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p><div class="im">Hi
Bob,<br>
<br>
Off-hand I cannot think of an Hebrew-language gazetters
for places outside of Israel but it might appear in
<span dir="RTL" lang="HE">אנציקלופדיה העברית</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> which may
have vocalized headings. I don't have it readily
accessible but I am sure that one of our safranim
colleagues will have a copy at hand.<br>
<br></div>
Also you can check Atlas le-toldot am Yisrael (1965)<br>
<br>
Good luck, Heidi<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u><p></p><div><div class="h5">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">"Robert
M. TALBOTT"
<a href="mailto:rtalbott@library.berkeley.edu" target="_blank"><rtalbott@library.berkeley.edu></a><br>
<b>To: </b>"Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" <a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">
<heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu></a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:59:32 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Heb-NACO] Romanization: ayin lamed
zayin vav zayin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Folks:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">A
pair of queries:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">1) I
have a sad little seder selihot here at my
desk and it purports to be ke-minhag [ayin
lamed zayin vav zayin]. One the one hand, I'm
pretty sure that string of letters refers to
Alsace. On the other, I can only guess at how
it's vocalized. OCLC has "Elzuz" but I
suspect this is not the 'droid I was looking
for. Please, if you have clue (and you just
might!) let me know before I have to guess.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">2)
Hebrew language gazetteers for a place other
than Israel. Surely they must exist. If anyone
has a recommendation, I'd be grateful.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Cheers<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">B<br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""><br>
-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<pre>Bob Talbott<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Hebraica Cataloger<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>UC Berkeley<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>250 Moffitt<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Berkeley, CA 94720<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>We're happy as fish,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>as gorgeous as geese,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>and wonderfully clean in the morning.<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Heb-naco mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72">Bob Talbott
Hebraica Cataloger
UC Berkeley
250 Moffitt
Berkeley, CA 94720
We're happy as fish,
as gorgeous as geese,
and wonderfully clean in the morning.</pre>
</div>
</div>