<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1255"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.5pt;
font-family:Consolas;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.PlainTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text";
font-family:Consolas;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I don’t think that the Yod in </span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>îàøéå</span><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'><span dir=LTR></span> is a Hirik but a consonant. The Vav is the vowel (Holam) and it should be Maryo.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>PS – the whole discussion is only an “academic discussion” – We are not going to change now the Romanization rules. Are we?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>If someone wants to change the rules – please till wait till I am 75, paid my mortgage and retire </span><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Yossi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> heb-naco-bounces+galron.1=osu.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+galron.1=osu.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jay Rovner<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 28, 2011 12:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>From the following Maher's Hebrew cataloging, p. 13), and from a more detailed source that I cannot locate, the vocalization should follow the vernacular pronunciation.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><b>Non-Hebrew names<o:p></o:p></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Supplying the vowels for non-Hebrew proper names appearing in Hebrew works can be quite problematic. Frequently there is some indication from either the author’s or the publisher’s romanization appearing in the item being cataloged. Occasionally however, there is no clue whatsoever. In those cases, an attempt is made to find the name or surname in English telephone books published in Israel or in other reference sources. Even though a "pure" AACR2 heading cannot be taken from the form found in a telephone book, the latter can be a useful aid in attempting to determine the correct vocalization. References may be made from the variants found. When it is impossible to determine the exact vocalization, it is up to the cataloger to make a judgment as to the likely vocalization and to refer from other reasonable possibilities. As above, if evidence is inconclusive, then such a heading is coded as provisional.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>This would help with regard to names where a <i>yod</i> representing a romance language “e” would be Romanize as “e” instead of “i,” as opposed to a straight romanization of <i>hirik=</i>“i.” However, the <i>yod</i> of <span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>îàøéå</span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span>would need to be represented in the Romanization. Nonetheless, I think that the implied <i>hirik </i>with the <i>resh </i>would dictate a Romanization of that element as “ri” according to the above paragraph, i.e., a simple Romanization of “Maryo” would not be correct).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>JR<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Jay Rovner, PhD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Manuscript Bibliographer<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>5501 Library<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>3080 Broadway<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>New York City, New York 10027<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>(212) 678-8045<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu]">[mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu]</a> On Behalf Of Aaron Kuperman<br>Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 11:30 AM<br>To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Perhaps there is since the Hebraicized Yiddish name is a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>"naturalized" Hebrew word, but the Hebraicized Italian name isn't. One<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>should ask how Israelis pronounce the name. There is some evidence that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Hebrew speakers with the name "Mario" pronounce it the way it is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>pronounced in Italian and English<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Which gets to historical question, should the purpose of romanization be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>to facilitate access to the catalog by users, even if this requires<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>catalogers to do more research to find a form that users prefer. Our<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>competition (the "google" approach, which some argue should replace<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>our's) aims to enter authors under the names that the authors and users<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>prefer rather than an artificial construct devised by catalogers and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>linguists.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Aaron<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On Mon, 28 Nov 2011, Biella, Joan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Is there a difference between saying that the Italian name "Mario" should be "romanized" as "Mario" rather than "Mariyo" and saying that the German name "Goldstein" should be "romanized" as "Goldstein" rather than "Goldshtain"?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Joan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> From: <a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jbie=loc.gov@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">heb-naco-bounces+jbie=loc.gov@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jbie=loc.gov@lists.service.ohio-state.edu]">[mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jbie=loc.gov@lists.service.ohio-state.edu]</a> On Behalf Of Aaron Kuperman<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 7:31 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> To: <a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> A similar question to the issue for Breslev/Braslav is raised whenever we encounter a proper noun that is written in Hebrew without nekudot. I recall a recent argument over the Italian/English forename "Mario" which based on the internet is uniformly romanized, and I believe pronounced, by users of that forename the same way it is written in Italian and English<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> -- yet according to current policy is romanized in catalog records as if it was a Hebrew word, leading to a romanization that it unrecognizable.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Perhaps there should be a rule that non-Hebrew proper nouns should be romanized based on how users routinely romanize them, rather than trying to base a rule that applies Hebrew grammatical principles to non-Hebrew words.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> And yes, I am primarily a subject cataloger who believes access points should reflect user needs rather than cataloger convenience (though in some ways RDA is moving more in that direction, at least in theory, at least according to Barbara Tillet).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Aaron Wolfe Kuperman<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Library of Congress, ABA USPL, Law Cataloging Section<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> This is DEFINITELY NOT an official communication from the Library of Congress.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Heb-naco mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Heb-naco mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Aaron Wolfe Kuperman<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Library of Congress, ABA USPL, Law Cataloging Section<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>This is NOT an official communication from the Library of Congress.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Heb-naco mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>